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New sails Laminate or Woven?

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Relentless View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Relentless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New sails Laminate or Woven?
    Posted: 01 February 2019 at 16:41
It's or new sails.  The Elvstroms that were delivered with the boat are delaminating.   After a quick look and phone call to Quantum I've been proposed with 2 choices:
 
Fusion M MC6500, a carbon aramid membrane
 
or
 
Hydranet tri-radial sewn
 
the price is nearly identical.
 
I'm leery of the membrane laminate sail because of delamination....but I really don't know.  How long should I expect them to last?
 
Thoughts?  Opinions?
 
Thanks!!
Rob
s/v Relentless
2015 Hanse 575
Newport, RI
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mopoulter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mopoulter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2019 at 17:05
IF you are not racing go with low stretch polyester my last sail used

Dimension 344 Pro Radial. and 25% Dimension 344 Pro Radial.

If racing then laminate is needed

Life time will be decided on how often and not putting them up in wind that will create loads too high for the sail survive.

This was done by Evolution Sail loft

 



 

 

mp

Hanse 370 #416

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SausalitoDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2019 at 20:43
I suggest you take a look at North 3di.

Dave 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2019 at 00:15
Hi we have had to go through the exact same process as our Elvstrom FCL sails have delaminated badly. Not racing often enough to go down the carbon route we have chosen the Hydranet. Our sail maker suggested that laminated sails were ok, but couldnít recommend them in the tropics, in fact he was quite surprised that they had lasted 5 years, but we have always covered them when the boat wasnít used. Apparently it is the heat and humidity that destroys them, not just the sun.
New sails should arrive this week, so will be interesting to see how they perform
All the best
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2019 at 01:49
I had hydranet sails for 10 years.   Tri-radial genoa, tri-radial main and staysail.   They were great,  but won't perform as well as a laminate, molded sail.   Mine were made by Steve Thurston at Quantum in Bristol, RI.    To my knowledge, its the only woven cloth strong enough for radial cut panels.   Spectra and polyester blend from Dimension, I believe.  Hydranet is well proven for large cruising boats.

Outside of lamination concerns,  woven has an advantage over laminate in one really important area.   Mildew.   Laminate sails can get measles between the layers and you cannot do anything about it.   Supposedly newer sails have biocides and anti-mildew formulations,  but look at a few year old laminate sail and you will still see it.  With Hydranet, if a spot or mildew forms, you just take out a brush and scrub it off.

I upgraded to the HPM/EPEX or molded sails.  I would have gone with the Quantum Fusion M 6500 and had a quote to do so at the time.  I didn't like the FCL, but I couldn't get a credit on them, so I negotiated an upgrade to the HPMs.    The jury is out though. The HPMs (like the Fusion) will definitely perform better, but time will tell if they are even close to the HYDRANET in durability.



Edited by Black Diamond - 02 February 2019 at 09:50
Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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Relentless View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Relentless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2019 at 18:18
Good info everyone!   Thank you!

Hereís what Iíve gathered:

Membrane sails do not stretch or deform. Because of this, they are always fast.

Woven sails start stretching immediately and lose their shape. The older they get, the more baggie and out of shape they get. Their performance declines with age.

When membrane sails age enough, they delaminate and fail. They will fail in a glorious explosion but will remain as fast as the first day they were hoisted.    Woven sails just age and get slower and slower... but will still get you home.

For a cruiser, with woven sails, you will always have something aloft.... maybe without much performance. And with membrane sails, you will have fast sails up until the moment they shred themselves.

So, there is some insurance and security with woven sails. But, if you plan to replace them often enough to maintain performance, then perhaps membrane sails make sense.

For coastal cruising, membrane sails sound great! But for a long offshore passage with 2-5 yr old membrane sails, you better carry a spare set.

The reality is that at $20,000-30,000 for a set, I just need to add that to the 5 year cruising budget.
Rob
s/v Relentless
2015 Hanse 575
Newport, RI
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2019 at 19:04
My latest mainsail is Fibercon with a Dynema thread so is different to a laminate sail.
It was sourced for racing & cruising.
My sail was made by Hyde
Google:-

Fiberconģ Pro Hybrid Powered with Dyneemaģ



Edited by samuel - 03 February 2019 at 19:07
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Black Diamond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2019 at 20:15
Sail life is not something one can predict easily.   One boat can get 10 years out of a sail where another boat only 5.    Flogging,  hard tacks,  whether it has full battens or not, etc.  make a HUGE difference.

The same sail in a roller furling mast will last a shorter period than one in a roller furling boom (such as yours) because of the way full battens protect it from flogging.   

My point is that your judgment of how you sail and what options you think are viable matters more than what any of us say.  :-)

Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Relentless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2019 at 18:50
Great info!   
 
Thank you all for responding!!
 
 
Rob
s/v Relentless
2015 Hanse 575
Newport, RI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Relentless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2019 at 13:54
North 3Di is in the picture now.  Iíve been in touch with them and Iím super impressed!  Iím not sure what the price is yet.... they are putting a proposal together.  But I havenít been able to find anything but great reviews on these sails.
Rob
s/v Relentless
2015 Hanse 575
Newport, RI
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