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Polar diagrams

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tingeling View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tingeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2008 at 22:00
I my humble opinion the polars from Hanse is not just design-criteria, but they seem to be rather unreliable brochure-stuff. How else could the 430 be "designed" to do the same speed as the 370 on 20 knot wind at 120 deg.
 
There must be more accurate, and still generic, polar diagrams available...even from the manufacturer.
 
 
Tingeling


Edited by tingeling - 30 March 2008 at 22:01
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tingeling View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tingeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2008 at 22:06
 
 
The above shows a polar diagram for a j-boat. It is claimed that the Hanse polar describes the speed based on genoa from 0-95 and spinnaker from 95 and all the way to 180. In that case the polar would look like the above enclosed picture, i.e. breaking the trend when changing sail.
 
I do not want to offend anyone, or the factory, but I am seeking more accurate information and documention on the boat I own...and care for.
 
I certainly learn a lot from the discussions on this forum.
 
Thanks......
 
Tingeling


Edited by tingeling - 30 March 2008 at 22:10
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Richard108 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard108 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2008 at 09:20
Here is the 531 Polar.  I assume it ialso applies to the 540

uploads/20080331_223013_531_polar.pdf





Edited by Richard108 - 31 March 2008 at 22:31
Regards Richard



("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007)

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colincooper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colincooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 13:03
Originally posted by sulutime sulutime wrote:

Sorry again Colin, but the purpose of a "pure" or, more plainly, of a "calculated" polar, is exactly to give a theoretical target to strive for when trimming and steering a boat. The polar shows the optimum and your own diagram shows how closely you are sailing to theoretical optimum. Personal polars (at least I think that's what you mean with typical) are only useful against designed polar, otherwise they only compare crew and boat performance. But for that, sailors invented regattas that are much more fun!!!
Fabrizio
 
Well much as a regatta is a fun way to match your boat, it doesn't really help.  What I would like is an approximate polar for my boat as it is.  I don't want one with a whole new set of very expensive fancy sails, complex spinnakers and all weight taken off.  That just isn't realistic. It is no-where close to my boat.  You might as well put up a polar for Alingi and see how well you would do in the America's Cup Wink
 
I would like to use it for passage planning and as a quick check of how I'm doing on a particular run.  I'm gradually drawing up my own but just wondered if anyone has completed one?
Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370)
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gertha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gertha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 22:22
 
Here is a polar off this site last year, and it is not far  off the mark.
Surf off a big wave downwind and you can get some crazy speeds, rest of the time this is what a 370 does.
 


Edited by gertha - 01 April 2008 at 22:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 00:39
The only real way to get polars for your boat is to log the data yourself and create your own personal ones.  If you can plug a PC or Laptop into your boat's NMEA data network there are various packages around which will log the data and over a period of time build up your own polars.  All you need is to tell the computer what sails you have up and when you change them.
 
Some software will then use the derived polar data to pump target boat speed and/or performance percentage back onto the NMEA data network for display on the instruments.
 
Eventually this is where I want to get to with Scorpio's set up.
 
Ed
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Johan Hackman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johan Hackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 19:40
Originally posted by Scorpio Scorpio wrote:

The only real way to get polars for your boat is to log the data yourself and create your own personal ones.  If you can plug a PC or Laptop into your boat's NMEA data network there are various packages around which will log the data and over a period of time build up your own polars.  All you need is to tell the computer what sails you have up and when you change them.
 

Some software will then use the derived polar data to pump target boat speed and/or performance percentage back onto the NMEA data network for display on the instruments.

 

Eventually this is where I want to get to with Scorpio's set up.

 

Ed


Ed,

What particular packages did you have in mind, and how far have you got with Scorpio's set-up (considering you wrote your post a while ago)? I am interested in something similar.

Johan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 23:12
Johan,
 
I haven't done it yet as I don't regularly have a computer on the boat and the software is quite expensive.
 
I believe the Race versions of Seapro, Seatrack and Raymarine's software will do it.
 
Hope this helps,
 
Ed
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panos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 18:22
Sorry Guys,
Unless you are on Alinghi, sail and boat performance cannot (IMHO of course) be approximated by one or more polar curves because the variables are too many to model. One of them though is the most important one : crew (sail  and boat trimming) and that is impossible to model. A motivated and experienced crew on a 370 is faster than a badly run 400 or even 430. Then comes sails and bottom condition condition (how clean the hull is). A folding propeller that doesn't close can ruin everything. And wind and waves cannot be modelled unless you are on an Americas cup boat. Sailing is an art and this is the beauty of it.


Edited by panos - 13 January 2009 at 18:36
Panos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter-Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 18:37

"Sailing is an art and this is the beauty of it."

Thanks panos, well said.
Blake 370
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