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Reefing wind speed

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Dion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2017 at 14:26
It is the long rudder I assume as it's lower part is almost level with the base of the keel and I have the starndard keel rather than the short one
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Dion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2017 at 06:59
I assume based on the results I am getting that my approach is wrong so please do correct me .
The ST jib effort as far as turning moment is forward of the centre of effort hence when sailing into the wind it will try to turn the bow downwind . The main has the opposite effect as the majority of the sail is behind the centre of effort .
In my case the boat is trying to get through the wind so my sail effort is not balanced . Reeling the main should achieve just that .
However if I completely roll the Jib the boat is very balanced stop heeling and slows down . If I unroll the jib partially Heal increase boat speed increase and it is manageable however based on information from other owners the boat is underperforming , unroll the job fully and the heel is way to much and the rudder does not have enough authority .
This is what is happening and based on my understanding of sail balance I am trying to get more power from the jib to counteract the main . However based on the above it seems that I have to reduce the poser of the jib to get balance between the main and jib . This works ( although slows the boat ) however it goes against my understanding of the forces in play .
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:32
I very rarely sail with a partially furled ST--It has to be 30kts+at least



Edited by samuel - 05 November 2017 at 11:48
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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JohnA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:44
Hi Dion,

Firstly I would suggest that you make a check of the rig tension of your boat. If incorrect this may be having a detrimental effect on your sailing position and this will spoil your enjoyment on the water. You are clearly having problems, which most correctly set up 320's would not have. If you can't achieve a well balanced boat I would suggest that you take the plunge and invest in a few hours on the water with a professional rig tuner/sail maker, who will undoubtedly be able to point you in the right direction.

Regards,

John
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Pieterman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pieterman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:58
Reefing reduces the heeling. Reefing the main reduces the heeling much more than reefing the ST. I seldom reef the ST. Even with a second reef in the main, I use the ST unreefed. This keeps the boat well balanced (a little bit weatherhelm) and the boat listens to the rudder.

When to much weatherhelm, I loosen the main sheet a bit so the luff shakes(right word?) sligthly and the main takes less wind. (If I had a traveler, I would first bring it to leeward first.) In this configuration the ST and the main counteract: 
- when sailing close to the wind, the ST works fine and the main works a bit less than he could. The boat is well balanced.
- when bearing away slightly, the main takes more wind and the boat luffs as it should
It's really finetuning I guess. For me, in heavy winds every second is a search for the ideal angle to the wind, and even more in high seas... And I always hold the main sheet in hand in case the boat luffs very fast.

Hope my explanation works for you, as it does for me. 
Any other ideas out there?



Edited by Pieterman - 05 November 2017 at 12:08
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Mike2145 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike2145 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2017 at 09:56
I still have the original sails, 10 years old but still reasonable.  However, 15-18Kn reef 1 18-25 reef 2 and above that reef 3.  This keeps things calm and under control.  The ST is not rolled at all as it seems to keep the boat balanced.  I have not sailed above 35ks AWS for prolonged periods to test.  
I agree that a good traveller works well and allows the shape to be easily maintained. The key seems to be not to allow the boat to heel a lot.  I dont understand the physics but I believe that the wide stern lifts the aft end (and the rudder) relative to the bow that has an effect of reducing grip of the rudder  Perhaps someone with more expertise can explain or put me right.  
Cant take a joke, don't buy a boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2017 at 12:34
Originally posted by Dion Dion wrote:

Thank you for all your replies
At 19kn AWS we completely furled the ST The boat speed reduced from 5.5 to 3.5 kn Heel was reduced from 35 to 5 degrees
When I had the new job made in July I also had the main modified as it was rubbing on the back stay They confirmed that it was at a reasonable state
I can flatten the main well and control the draught to about 35% Shape seems to be good
I will get a tensioning gauge and check the rig tension The mast was replaced just before I bought the boat so it is possible that the y have set it wrong

It would be quite helpful if you could post some fotos of your sail - set and with wind in it. If you have a foto looking from the boom to the masttop, it might help to see the profile of the sail. 
  
In terms of the rig setting, you do not necessarily need a tension gauge. Pls. google on the Selden hompage, there is a pretty good explanation of how to set the rig correctly, just using a folding rule attached to the shroud.  

Your heeling angle is way too high for about 19 knots AWS - wich should be around 14 - 15 knot TWS - if you have really trimmed the main flat (outhaul to max, halyard to max, kicker applied) and applied the backstay tension to 3/4 of max. Before you take away the self tacking jib, you should have first applied reef 1 and than reef 2. We only take the ST away, if we are going downwind for more than 150 AWA or in reach on high windspeed. We never partly furl the ST - it will destroy the sail and not help in terms of getting upwind at all. 
Jan




Edited by Janni - 11 November 2017 at 13:35
Hanse 320 #548 "SCHNEGGE"
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2017 at 13:12





Here is a picture of my boat in 15 kts of wind in the Black Deep which is not far from your home in the Medway. We are punching a strong tide of 1.1 Kts so we are making 5.5kts over the ground( you can just see that on the GPS  second display from the right) but 6.6 though the water. The log has been calibrated in the Walcheren canal (both ways) to compensate for any tidal flow & i know that at this speed it over reads .3 kts so it incorrectly shows 6.9 kts ( makes me feel good !!)
You can see that we are not healing very much & are no where near reefing in this flat water.

The picture was taken by my son from a Hanse 445 having just overtaken us & checked that we were not motor sailing.
He had great joy in teasing me that it was not me that was helming !!!!!!!

In a 320 you should be looking at something similar



Edited by samuel - 11 November 2017 at 13:28
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Dion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 07:03
Thank you for the information .Samuel nice pictures 
I have to agree that the behaviour I am getting from the boat is not as it should .
I tried to get some pictures yesterday however the wind was bellow 2 knots in the river .
Unfortunately I am getting the boat out of the water on Saturday for the winter . I will try and get some pictures prior to that and hopefully have it all resolved before next season .
With two young boys and a nervous wife it makes life very difficult when on board for me as you can imagine.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 22:01
Dion
It would be interesting to know what your previous sailing experience was.  Having raced Merlin Rocket dinghies (big main, small non-overlapping jib) for a number of decades, I also initially found how the Hanse sailed slightly puzzling, as I was very conscious of weather/lee helm from my dinghy sailing years. 

I think that like many modern yachts, when heeled the hull shape is unsymmetrical, and so when the yacht is heeled to leeward it wants to round up to windward.  Your furling the jib has reduced the heel and the reduction in rounding up moment caused by the change in hull shape more than offsets the increase in weather turning moment caused because the centre of effort of the rig has moved backwards now that the jib is furled.   There is also the view that the power of the jib buries the bow slightly which increases weather helm, so furling it may decrease weather helm slightly.

Overall,  I have found that the effect of the sail set-up is much smaller than I initially expected.  At various times I have sailed on reaches in strong winds with either just the main up or just the jib up and the feel of the helm is not significantly different.  The only time I really notice the difference is when the cruising chute is up (which is 3 times the size of the ST jib) on a broad reach when the helm really feels very light as there is now so much power up the front. 

Anyway, like most of the other respondents, I normally reef the main first down to a third reef, before starting to think about furling anything from the jib.  After that you only need to furl the jib a small amount before you see a real drop in power because the sails then start to work as 2 separate aerofoils rather than as one combined aerofoil.  

From a post years ago on the Myhanse forum, I found out how to rig a third reef.  My Selden boom has 4 pulleys at the aft end.  At the front end there are 2 pulleys on the topside for the 1st and 2nd reef and two pulleys on the bottom side, of which one is used for the outhaul.  I rig the third reef through the remaining pulley and then there is pulley fastened under the gooseneck and the reefing line goes round this and then up to the third luff reefing point.  The ball bearing pulley with becket is secured by rope to the lower kicker mast fitting and held up by shockcord close to the gooseneck.  You can just see it in the final photo on this post.   I then added another pulley to the sail organiser and another clutch by the cockpit.

http://www.myhanse.com/controlling-the-jib-downwind_topic10476.html 

At the leech, I run the reefing line through a Harken air block and attach this to the sail leech reefing eye with a long Dyneema soft shackle.  Thus, in light weather I can take off the 3rd reef leech line and reduce the amount of rope dropping into the cockpit.

For me, the main effect of the backstay when the full main is up, is to open up the leech at the top of the main which depowers it, rather than significantly flattening the sail by bending the mast..
Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout & shallow keel, normally based in Scotland
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