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Rudder Stock

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graeme View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rudder Stock
    Posted: 06 July 2015 at 21:11
Hi - long time no post. Sadly, long time no sail.

I need some advice to avoid a 2000 bill that I don't really understand. The work has not started, so looking for options - urgently.

When I bought my 301 the rudder bearings were showing play, so I got a local company to replace the bearings while she was on the hard. They made their own and all was well. No play.

Fast forward 4 trouble-free years, but not been out of the marina for the last 9 months and when she came out the water, the rudder was stuck solid. Tried everything, but nothing budged. When inspected the only anomaly was  the rudder "tube" that the stock sits in, was filled with what I assume to be rain water coming from above. The stern locker floor was dry.

After drying for a couple of days, 2 of us eventually got it moving slowly and the water started to drain as we rocked the rudder back and forth. However, it was still very very hard to turn - impossible for one from the rudder, and even the extra lever of the tiller took both arms.

If freedom of turning the rudder is a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being totally seized - it was an 8 or a 9.

My theory is the bearings from 5 years back caused the problem. But dunno. The company involved 5 years ago is now gone, so asked another company to diagnose.

They dropped the rudder and say the stock is extremely pitted half way up and reckon it is too suspect and may fracture when it is doing its day job at sea. So, they are suggesting a minimum 2000 to replace and re-fit rudder - and imply a lot of hard work refitting the rudder to the stock.

I have yet to see it for my own eyes - will do in next few days.

Is there a way to replace / repair a stock that is not so traumatic to my wallet ?

Is this a design / Hanse thing or am I just unlucky ?

A problem shared......

Thanks

Graeme




Edited by graeme - 06 July 2015 at 21:14
Hanse 301 - Deep Fin - MD2010 - MS25S - 2001
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nickflo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickflo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2015 at 23:53
I believe that you have a Jefa rudder. Just call Jefa I'll be sure they can help you or can give a tip.
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Kiel, Germany
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Bitbaltic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitbaltic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2015 at 09:29
Hi Graeme,

This is a common problem with the 301 (ask me how I know). When I bought mine 3 years ago the rudder was very stiff and the surveyor suggested replacing the bearings. When the yard dropped the rudder to investigate it was found that a) the aluminium stock was badly pitted and b) someone had tried to remediate this by filling the pits with epoxy.

The epoxy repair had disintegrated and the bearings had then seized. quite a mess as both bearings and stock were then damaged.

I have since heard anecdotal evidence of this happening on several other 301s and some of the earlier Judel/Vroljik Hanses. The causes of the problem are not certain- the pitting may be due to some sort of crevice corrosion when the rudder stock is in contact with the bearings, and my yard were of the opinion that the aluminium stock itself was not of sufficient grade.

Re. the rudder. The first thing my yard did was contact Hanse to try and source a replacement. Hanse seemed confused and eventually sent a drawing of a dissimilar rudder. I think this may have been a consequence of different rudder designs (at least some of the time) being fitted to the wing and deep fin versions of the yacht (mine is a wing keel with the rudder blade squared off at the tip; a fin keel 301 in the same marina has a perhaps longer rudder blade with a distinctly rounded tip).

There is some doubt as to whether or not the rudder is a Jefa- I have heard suggestions both ways and when I looked into it a couple of years ago (can't remember the details now) I concluded that (at least for the wing keel version) the rudder was probably not a Jefa.

Re. way forward. Whether or not the original rudder is a Jefa, I would suggest you contact them in the first instance as they are the only likely source of a direct replacement. If Hanse themselves could supply anything at all then I suspect they would try to source it from Jefa anyway. If Jefa are confident they can help you I would go that way as the other option is a lot of effort....

If you get no luck from Jefa then your only choice will be to rebuild the rudder completely. This is what I ended up doing, as at the time I did not know about Jefa as a potential source of a replacement.

The yard split the GRP rudder 'shell' in two, removed the stock and tangs, and cleaned out the foam core. They then fabricated a new stock from top-quality marine grade aluminium, re-attached the tangs, re-bedded the stock in the shell and glassed the blade back up. They also replaced the bearings with newly fabricated units.

The end result was excellent and there have been no problems in the three years since (I had the rudder unshipped last season in order to make a long-term check).

But : the process took 2-3 months (including the time spent waiting for info from Hanse) and the final cost was somewhere in the region of 2500 for the rudder repair and more for the bearings.

I don't seem to have the pictures of the stock pitting anymore, it would have been nice to have attached them.

Good luck whatever you choose to do. If you would like to discuss or perhaps put your yard in touch with one that has done this before feel free to pm me.

Cheers

Huw
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graeme View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2015 at 23:36
Nick(?), Huw,

Great info from both - thanks - which led me to contact the UK Jefa disti. 

I have yet to confirm price and availability, but thought I'd post the drawing they sent me "for the record" on the forum.


Graeme
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2015 at 15:47
Are the bearings roller bearings or nylon bushes. Nylon swells in water
As for new rudder, i would definitely go for jefa, not a one off job.
Having seen my 311 rudder when it failed i would be wary of a hanse rudder that was not jefa
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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graeme View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2015 at 00:43
For the record, below are some pics of the problem rudder shaft, highlighting examples of the pitting. The pitting does not look as extreme in the pics as in the flesh.

Bottom line....... there is no way I could this back on my boat.....not after seeing it.




Hanse 301 - Deep Fin - MD2010 - MS25S - 2001
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Lippe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lippe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2015 at 17:09
I may also have some pitting like this but do not consider it very dramatic.
"True sailor doesn't ask for proper wind. He learns how to sail"
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Gregor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gregor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2015 at 15:12
Had the same and filled them with epoxy. Flinting afterwards to the degree it fits in the bearing again.
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2015 at 20:45
Rather than fill with epoxy, which would give no structural strength, why not weld the crevices. This would fill the voids with molten metal which would form part of the main shaft. It could then be ground flush again
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Bitbaltic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitbaltic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2015 at 21:18
Originally posted by Gregor Gregor wrote:

Had the same and filled them with epoxy. Flinting afterwards to the degree it fits in the bearing again.


As I mention in a post above when I purchased my boat I discovered it had pits in the stock which had been filled with epoxy. Whilst this probably worked for a previous owner in the short term, in the long term it resulted in the disintegration of the epoxy and damage to the bearings.

I can't comment on Samuel's idea of welding these pits but epoxying them up is not likely to be a good long-term idea as it only defers a bigger repair bill.
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