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Self tacking jib

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mike pearce View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 July 2017 at 16:20
I am in the market for a new self tacking jib for my 370 and would welcome any feedback or recommendations on the subject of a replacement sail from other owners.
I replaced the original self tacker in 2012 for a smaller sail with a shorter luff and foot. At the time I asked for the designer to produce a sail which would work in stronger winds as it was impossible to control the top of the leech on the standard sail.Whilst tolerable in winds up to 15kts apparent the leech at the top started to " motor " uncontrollably and violently when close hauled in anything above this.Do others have this problem?
The replacement sail had a luff of 13.0m, a leech of 11.30m and a foot of 3.78m. Similar to a No1 jib. The sail has a 1.5m webbing strop at its head such that the top furler remains in the same position as the original sail.
Despite it being a smaller sail the results were a revelation. The boat sails faster and points higher in anything over 12 knots apparent and we can comfortably hold the sail with full main ( albeit flattened and depowered ) in 20-22 knots apparent.
Despite being smaller the sail is more powerful and the leech fully controlled. Moreover the flow over the main is much improved with no backwinding evident so, much more efficient.
I am minded to replace this with an identically sized sail although before doing so I wondered if others had similar experience with the original self tacker and/ or alternative solutions. Are there any sail lofts to be recommended who could produce a good quality standard sized self tacker for a reasonable price which works effectively in a wide range of conditions ? I am not seeking " racing sails" just a decent quality cruising rig.
Many thanks
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2017 at 19:50
I would have thought that if the sail had been properly cut then one should be able to carry the full sized self tacker quite happily up to 30Kts before one had to think about furling it. I certainly can on my 311. In fact my earlier Hyde Marblehead dacron which was slightly less powerful than my current Optimum laminate sail could be carried in higher winds. The current sail is considerably more powerfull so I do have a problem of being overpowered in anything approaching 30 Kts up wind
So although the 37 has a bigger sail it is a bigger boat, so it is relative

Although I am a great follower of Hyde sails I chose Optimum for my ST because at the time they were producing the winning sails in the "J" class & as we know the foresail on a J is a blade sail. I felt that they might make a better ST & I am not disappointed. Not sure that I would have another laminate ST though as I am not sure about longetivity. That being said I am on my 4Th ST in 13 years ( plus a Genoa) & my third main so I change fairly regularly.
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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kirkelund View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kirkelund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2017 at 21:54
I agree with samuel that in wind speeds up to about 30 knots you would normally only have to worry about reefing the main.Wink

Anyway, I have replaced my original North Sails self tacking jib with a jib from Elvstrøm Sails (Epex). That was a bit of an overkill, I admit. But, it gave considerable more power on all courses up to 50 degrees true. On the other hand I struggle a bit close hauled (45 degrees). I probably have to adjust the clew point and maybe omit the extra block on the clew as the  jib is cut to the max.

Why not let your sailmaker who designed your existing (2012) jib do the new one?

I believe the most important choice is the type of cloth rather than the sail loft as most of them use the same suppliers (Dimension Polyant, Bainbridge etc.) except Elvstrøm Sails who use their proprietary Epex.

Go for a good "cruising" solution and remember to have the jib fitted with battens - four of them would probably be suitable for a 370.

Ole,
Kirkelund

"Amani"
Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark
Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34)
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Brufan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brufan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2017 at 21:09
In a few words : laminate fabrics (Trilam trekking for me) and 3-4 vertical battens.
With this, you will have a complete other yacht

Bruno

hanse 355 - 57

S/Y Spicy Ginger

White hull, 2 cabins, Volvo D1-30, Selden rig, removable mainsheet track system (modifications done now), Simrad-Jefa autopilot.
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 06:31
Re the battens. My Hyde, Optimum & East sails all have battens but My Lonton & Gray made sail does not.
The best thing about that is that I can quickly change from ST to genoa without any hassle.
With the battens I have to sit in deck & remove the battens before I can get the sail into the sail bag & below deck. This is extremely difficult when single handed even on the dockside & impossible at sea.
I certainly cannot do it with my laminate sail.
I would also make the point that the my batten pockets are far too tight & i have to force the battens into the pockets. My next sail will be ordered with much wider pockets so that i can get the battens in & out far easier.
You may consider asking the sailmaker to either omit the battens or make the pockets bigger to allow easy removal of the battens.
Laminate sails are more powerful but one has to remember that with a jib they are subject to more flapping so delaminate quicker than a mainsail so will not last as long.
My new mainsail ( this year) is made from Fibrecon which is a dynema thread in a dacron cloth. I might go for that in my next ST sail.
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Sea-U View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sea-U Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 12:14
One guy at my marina has a selftacker with two small battens that are tubes. (Not a Hanse) They collapse when you roll in the sail. 
He is happy with that.
I would like something similar when I finally change my selftacker.
Anyone tried this og heard of this?



Edited by Sea-U - 31 July 2017 at 12:15
Sea-U is a 370e #532 located SW Norway
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mike pearce View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike pearce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2017 at 23:01
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I need battens to control the leech and better quality laminate to hold the draft in place. I'm surprised others are holding a full sized self tacker in up to 30 Kts. I'm reefing the main in 20kts apparent and by 25kts   the ST has given up the ghost in terms of shape so I'm motor sailing!
Perhaps it's because I have a shallow draft keel ? Appreciated this isn't great for close hauled work especially in open waters when there's an awkward sea running which is usually the case when the wind is blowing this hard.
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Martin&Rene View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 August 2017 at 20:55
RE Samuel's comment about having wider batten pockets.  There is a balancing act here, as if the batten pockets are too wide then when the jib flogs, as it sometimes will do, than the battens can ride over the strap which is holding them in.  I have lost 2 jib battens and on some of the replacement battens I have added a tube section stuck over the batten end piece to make it wider, so that it cannot work its way around the strap.

I think the problem arises because whilst the mainsail battens are basically under tension under all the time and they are almost at right angles to the leech, on the jib the batten pockets are at an angle to the leech and sometimes the battens are not completely under tension.  


 
Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout & shallow keel, normally based in Scotland
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 August 2017 at 07:22
Just ask the sail maker to ensure that the strap holding the batten is the full width of the pocket.
Actually my battens do have quite a lot of tension when inserted in the leech & they did have large end caps but i had to remove them as they were too tight. But that might just be a very poor detail on my sail & others are different


Edited by samuel - 07 August 2017 at 07:25
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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