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Westabo heating

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High Time View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2017 at 22:47
Originally posted by JonB JonB wrote:


Boats of 40' + are too big for a single diesel fired heater system, which is why new builds have two, one serves the forecabin only.


That would be a very expensive overkill solution IMHO. 

I fitted an Eberspacher Hydronic system in High Time. This has a 5KW rating but heats water rather than air so the heat can be easily distributed to where it is needed without losing much heat en route. 

Rather than radiators (which would not look good on a sailing yacht) I used 4 small matrix heaters - one in each sleeping cabin and 2 in the saloon. The fan on each of these can be individually controlled with 2 speeds and off, which makes the system very flexible. After an hour the forepeak can easily achieve 21C when it is freezing outside.

My only disappointment with the system is that it is a bit noisy when all the fans are on high!
Roger

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iemand View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iemand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2017 at 08:22
I like this idea of different addtional vents. 
I would think about a small control electronic, maybe with a raspberry pi pc with seperate temp sensors. 
On the other hand it will be difficult to adjust the general Temp and the vans speed.

BR Thomas
Hanse 312 MJ 2004 - Hanse 370e MJ 2007
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 18:07
Don't forget Mr Thomas,

Complicated electronics don't like damp environments and these are boats when all said and done.

The Webasto has managed to run all night last night, a Wha Hoo moment as I stood on the hard looking up listening to the singing of the exhaust.  So today I opted to connect the un-insulated downstream section of duct which goes beneath the saloon heads and finishes under the navigation table.  I turned the dial (thermostat) up slightly and continued to polish the hull before the rain drifted in.

With light fading and one more section complete, I sat on the floor with a cup of tea, a torch and my Kestrel 3000 and pondered as to how I'm going to feed the larger 90mm duct forward to the master cabin, as the existing is 60mm and attached to the hull with cable ties.  I decided that I will have to 'drill' circular inspection holes (150mm dia)  in the base of the storage space under the seats, so I can not only get to these cable ties, but also get two arms in to feed the new duct through, the next obstacle being the master cabin en-suite of course.

With the torch I could see the cable ties under the seats but I could also see that at sometime during manufacture someone had stepped on the duct flattening it !  This clearly is one more reason why nothing but hope & anticipation came out of the front.  Is the puzzle slowly unravelling  ?

With the Kestrel, I could measure accurately the velocity from the new free end and it reached 2.0m/s and the temperature was a cosy 45.0C.  There is of course another take off (Y) under the saloon heads feeding the heads themselves.  I like the idea of this being nice and warm acting as a drying room, but I mustn't get ahead of myself.

So for now at the new setting, I've left it running, hopefully it has settled down.  The fuel has dropped from 235l when I started trying to run it by 15l, suggesting that there is an issue.  Last night it had only dropped 2l.

I'll keep you posted.


Edited by JonB - 06 January 2017 at 18:26
Jon B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 22:22
There's articles on the net that suggest that the diesel (Gas oil) from marina's (and we here in the UK add a red dye to it) just adds impurities making for canonisation of the burner unit more likely.  So I may take the feeder pipe from the boats fuel tank and use a 10ltr jerry can filled with road diesel (Ultra Low Sulphur) instead with less impurities and see if it runs at the various temperatures without stopping.

(http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-354020.html)




Edited by JonB - 06 January 2017 at 22:24
Jon B
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Martin&Rene View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 16:10
JonB

I am not sure whether this point needs to be taken into consideration as well.  I note that the forum article you refer to is from 2013.  Over the last few years, the diesel you buy for road vehicles has bio diesel in it, whilst I know that about 3-4 years ago, our marina was particular to point out that its diesel was not bio-diesel, as it is generally accepted that this is more susceptible to diesel-bug. 

From numerous articles, I have seen, the conclusion seems to be that running the heaters on low for a long time leads to carbon build-up, so the advice seems to be you either run it in on-off mode, or make sure you run it at high after a period of running on low.

Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout & shallow keel, normally based in Scotland
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High Time View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 16:45
I would agree with Martin re bio diesel and also not running your heater on low for long periods.

If your heater does suffer from a build up of carbon then another trick I have read about (with supporting evidence) is to run the heater on high for several hours burning pure paraffin (kerosene), rather than the normal diesel (gasoil). This burns off the carbon build up, apparently. The 'supporting evidence' included before and after photos and seemed genuine (on the YBW/PBO Forum a couple of years ago).
Roger

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 16:51
Martin,

Correct governments have been encouraging bio additives in to the fuel and some suppliers add more than others.  Also in that forum it does say that the heaters do need to be run hot to prevent the build up of carbon.

Today is a misty/foggy one, so mild.  When I went to the boat the heater had stopped working but no flashing.  I was hopeful that the thermostat had done its thing and so I turned it up.  It went through the start procedure then baulked and gave me two flashing.  I checked the in line filter as I remember it had a slight air bubble, this had very little fuel in it, so I removed it and run it without the filter for now.

I let it cool down and then fired it up again on the hotter setting and set to polishing the push & pull rails. It had been running for a while and I'd been up the bow end and was working at the stern, when a tale tale blue cloud of smoke came from the exhaust and it shut down !  I'll get my self some high grade diesel and lower the pump feed in to it and get the unit to run and see if fuel is the issue.  If it is then I'll put a second tank dedicated to the heater unit.

On Monday I''ll have a chat with Webasto and see what their opinion is as to whether they're working on a new type of burner that can cope with the lower grade fuels !

Roger - I think the forum discusses the running of paraffin too.  I may buy a few litres of that too ! 


Edited by JonB - 07 January 2017 at 16:54
Jon B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2017 at 18:09
Today Sunday (8th), I ran some paraffin through it and although I didn't measure the temperature it certainly felt hotter. I have since set it up to run on 10l of road diesel over night.  So two thing will be learnt from this, firstly will the fuel make a difference and secondly is it over pumping causing it to flood and die.  How long should 10l last ?

Today the UK Webasto guys returned my e-mail and the content of the discussion was very interesting.  C02 could be the answer to the problems.  I fitted a new burner a while back, but knew nothing about C02 levels apart from those that you install an alarm for in a household situation.  It would appear that if I take my unit down to a local fitter/supplier, he can set it up on his rig, run it and like your car, the exhaust gas analyser will tell him all sorts about how the unit is performing and can make adjustments to get it to the optimum burn.

This means that the marina fuel which is ultra low sulphur road fuel, that this "standard" fuel now has up to 7% FAME ( bio-diesel).  So by adjusting the units C02 it can run as intended and efficiently as possible.

So the way froward is to take the unit off and go get it set up on a bench and I'll let you know what happens.
Jon B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2017 at 18:20
It's Tuesday and I've had the unit running continuously for 48hrs now, every day I've raised the temperature slightly.  I think it's used around 4l in that period but not easy to tell with a black can.
Jon B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 22:47
Wednesday, come back from a meeting at 1900 & the units shut down.  I'm not disappointed as it had run out of fuel. What niggles me slightly is that it's used about 10.5l since I set up this experiment.  This might be correct I see the manual suggests that a 5kw unit uses up to 0.5kg per hour. A litre of grade 2 weighs about 838g (0.838kg). Grade 2 being that which lorries use, why they can't talk the same language is no doubt to stop people like us understanding what they're doing.

So what I've done is to link the unit back to the boats tank & see if the absorption of water in our tank may be the cause of the burn outs. If the unit struggles then my next move is to buy some fresh marine fuel
 (low sulphur 7% bio + dye) 'standard' fuel in my spare fuel can & see what happens.

The mild winter is not helping to a degree as the thermostat appears to be doing its job & putting the unit in idle till the temp drops during the night. Not complaining the system appears to work.
Jon B
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