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Westabo heating

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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2017 at 22:30
Interesting morning, a week late but none the less interesting.  The specialist, which he is, gets flown around Europe to fix such things, so last week in Germany hence no follow up from me.

Let me start by saying that the marine industry is about 1% of the commercial market and 99% is automotive. The unit I have is an Airtop 5000 St and it was never designed to have any major length of ducting to it, lorry cabs, motor homes fine, 47' yachts forget it.  So if you have the same model as I have, drop it in Formaldehyde, cut it into long sections and display it in an art gallery, as this is all it's worth.

The running of paraffin in this model and probably others will leave an oily layer on the inside of the burner and affect the flame, causing it to extinguish.  European legislation required the outside temperature not to exceed 130C and so this unit had a revised temperature sensor fitted, which caused the brain of the unit to try to lower the burn temperature by reducing fuel.  Unfortunately, the air fan is connected directly to the burn fan, so as the burn fan slowed, the air fan also slowed, the sensor realising that the temperature wasn't reducing slowed the fuel rate further, until it gets to a point where combustion can no longer exist, two flashing lights!  It was unable to get itself out of the downward spiral.

Also, the chips inside these things keep a running record of whats gone on before and thanks to the specialist, I was able to see the history of all the faults that had occurred during its life.  It also had a break down of how long it ran at 100% and down to flame out in four stages.  Ideally, these units want to run at 50%, enabling the carbon to be burnt off, the cause of the problems.  My units profile was back to front.

Newer units are able to control the air fan separately from the burn fan, so run the burn leaner raising the temperature preventing carbon build up, it also enables them to run on a wider range of quality fuels.

I thank the specialist in Swanick, Uk for giving me the time to explain.  Would the fitting of an in line fan help?  Well, yes it probably would have as it would've prevented overheat, but the fan would have suffered from the heat itself and required eventual replacement.

Will I replace it with a brand new unit and all the kit that comes with it, or will we put up with doubling the duvet & putting additional pillows against the walls.  Well jury's out on this one for the time being, but at least I have my answers.
Jon B
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http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk
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Johan Hackman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johan Hackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2017 at 15:10
I hear that you are frustrated.

I agree that marine equipment often seem to be designed for cars in the first place but I don't really agree that the Webasto heater could not be used on a boat. I obviously don't know anything about your boat or your heater nor would I try to disagree with your specialist, but by looking at my own extensive use of my own heater I believe that you should be able to get your heater to work just as fine as mine. I am saying this just to make you look further into your problems. I don't want you to be cold at night.

My heater is a 3500 and there is only one fan. Are you sure that you have two?

Johan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Forth2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2017 at 16:00
Safire and Wallas designs heaters for marine use.

I have a safire heater in my boat, it has been working for ten seasons now without problem or service. It is very quiet too.
It has separate fans for cold and warm air, and upto 4 hot air outlets. But 4 a 47 footer a 3.6 or 4 kw unit may be to small.

http://safire.fi/index.php?id=50
http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=46

Mike



Edited by Forth2 - 28 July 2017 at 16:00
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2017 at 17:38
Johan,

The Airtop 5000ST like all the units only has the one fan motor, but the air fan, the one with blades on the outside is directly connected to the burn fan on the inside which is a flat disk. I was tempted at first to fit an in line fan as the duct passes beneath the chart table under the floor on the 470.  When I started to replace the ducting I found two issues, the first was that the inner liner had come away (see earlier photo's) and the second appeared to have what appeared to be a single footprint so likely to have been trodden on during boat build, under the saloon.  So I had hoped that this was the reason air or more importantly air with heat, didn't reach the master cabin, alas no.

When the sensor on the outside of the heater realises it's approaching the magic 120C, it reduces the fuel input and the burn fan speed.  Unfortunately, the fans being connected via the one shaft means that the air fan slows and cannot remove the hot air quick enough to stop the sensor repeating itself, which it continues to do so until the unit cuts out, two flashing.

The in line fan could assist in drawing this hot air away from the unit, keeping it running, but the experts think that this fan will eventually suffer from the heat and cause the bearing to cease.

We've not had the heater since we've owned the boat 6years, so double duvets and pillows next to the walls have sufficed in the past, it's going to make the tea you notice it.  I had decided this year I would get to the bottom of it and I have, will I buy a replacement - not sure only once, early one season, can I say it would've been very nice to have had one, but then it was -8C in the cockpit.
Jon B
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http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk
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Lykke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lykke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2017 at 23:21
My webasto is located in the upper part of the storage rom. This was a small void with no ventilation and this resulted in the webasto getting overheated after a while. I have now added an extra ventilation at this place and added some insulation around the exhaust and heated air tubes. Looks like as this has helped, but I have not yet run it for very long in really cold weather...
Lykke, Hanse 430e, #8 from 2007
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Silver lining View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silver lining Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 13:57
 
Guys - for what is worth, my Webasto Heater 5000 on my 400 gave me similar issues, would not start up first time, and would run inconsistently and shut down. The problem was traced to a faulty fuel pump. If you listen carefully at start up the pump should make a 'clicking noise'  - this will slow down once the heater has fired up . Listen for the clicking , if your not getting it all the time , the pump is on its way out .
Also there should be an in line fuel filter between the tank and the pump for this to run correctly - the factory did not install this - hence my fuel pump failure .
now my heater works perfectly.
 
 
 
Hanse 400e #199
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 14:35
Is it the ST model?

Yes, I can hear it ticking, speed up and slow down again and the chap checked it as well, so that's fine.
Jon B
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http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk
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Silver lining View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silver lining Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 19:41
Yes it's the ST model .
Ok , hope you get it sorted . Try and get it connected for diagnostic ,it should show the fault
Hanse 400e #199
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2017 at 21:53
The specialist did that in front of me too.

On the later 470's they came with two heaters one serving the master cabin only and the other the rear cabins & saloon.  The length of duct from out the back of the unit to the master cabin is too long for the ST, how long do you think your longest duct run is?
Jon B
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Silver lining View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silver lining Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2017 at 21:40
@jonb Bearing in mind my boat is the 400, considerably smaller than your 470, but like you I find my master cabin heat output and airflow considerably less than the saloon , heads, and rear cabin .
I will also check the duct has not been squashed somewhere along the line from heater to forward cabin .
I am away for a fews days, but next time on the boat I will measure it for you
Hanse 400e #199
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