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Battery Voltage during charging

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chrgra View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 October 2016 at 23:16
Dear members,

In june I got a few Times a High Voltage warning during sailing/motoring. In the same month/week the Power button of My vhf blew. ( at Midnight with the noisy gps lost alert in a crowded harbour)

Because the boat is brand New I contacted the hanse dealer and they contacted b&g.

After that issue, after 3 hours sailing with autopilot My batteries are empty.

The dealer is nog convinced and states I Have abused the batteries to much.

On this moment I am investing other causes.

The High Voltage warning had been soluted to raise the warning level to 18 volt by the the Engineering!
I Have the agm 160a batteries lc-150.

My First question is:
When on Shore Power I see the batteries Voltage during loading.
Is a charge Voltage of 14.8 to High and Will Dry the agm batteries?

My second question:
During sailing: how could I get a High Voltage warning

My third question:
If it was during motoring. How fast Will the batteries being damaged?

Thanks in advance

Regards chris




Edited by chrgra - 28 October 2016 at 23:17
Hanse 385 Charlotte #363
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Fendant View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fendant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 09:18
1) Voltage on Shore Power
14.8 Volt seems to be a normal INITIAL Charge after having used battery power for a full sailing day without motoring. This should go down to 13.8 Volt after a while, even with fridge and other electricity on.
 
2) High Voltage warning
I have no idea how this can happen without the engine running.
With engine running I suspect a problem with the generator. Do you monitor your voltage during motoring ?
 
3) Battery bank
Looks as if the bank is dead indeed if it is empty after 3 hrs sailing.
I saw this when my fridge emptied the service bank completely ( Voltage below 12 V )
 
Frank
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High Time View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 20:46
1.  14.8V is too high. That is the setting for wet lead acid batteries. It should be 14.4 or maybe slightly higher for AGM. This can normally be changed in the charger settings.

2.  What high voltage warning are you seeing? Do you have any other charging system apart from the engine and shore power - neither of which will be charging when you are sailing - eg solar panels, wind generator etc. What voltage are you seeing on the built in panel meter when you are getting the alarm? Do you have a separate bow thruster battery? If so, this is normally charged by a battery to battery charger which also has settings for different battery types. Again it should produce no more than 14.4V. The voltage on all 3 battery banks is visible in the voltmeter on the panel. The bow thruster is Battery III (3).

3.  If you have been charging for long periods at 14.8V then the batteries may have dried out. If they have also been completely discharged then they may well be damaged. What else is switched on when you are sailing - instruments, fridge, inverter maybe? Clearly the autopilot alone should not flatten them in 3 hours. 
Roger

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karina View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote karina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 October 2016 at 15:00
Hi Chris,

for AGM batteries the max. Voltage for charging is dependent on the batterie manufacturer and type. E.g. Vetus recommends for AGM 14,4V max, but Varta recommends for their Professional DC AGM type 14,8V. However depending on the charging level, after some time the voltage should reduce to approx. 13,8V to just keep the batterie fully charged.

Maybe you could temporarily install a voltage meter also in the cockpit in order to check the voltage from time to time when your engine is running. Also you should check the batterie voltage from time to time when you charge the batteries with 220V. 

Do you have other chargers (e.g. solar chargers or charger from wind generator)?

I don't know, what type of autopilot you have, so which average current the autopilot consumes, but for sure your batteries have the capacity to supply the autopilot for much longer than 3 hour when they are at start fully charged and when they are not damaged. Do you know the voltage or charging level, when you switched on the autopilot?

BR,
Rainer

PS.: In spring 2005 we bought a new Beneteau. But because the boat was located the whole winter before at the dealer, the batteries were not charged and more or less "dead" when we took over the boat. So a new boat is not a guaranty for batteries in good condition...



live slow - sail fast!
S/Y Karina
Hanse 371 #32
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Bandy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 11:00
The panel of our charger/inverter (victron multiplus) shows  three stages, bulk, absorption and float. in bulk mode it charges at ca. 14.4 volt, in the second stage, absorption it can even go to 14.9 but for a very short period (like 10 to 15 minutes) and in float it will be between 13.6 and 13.8 dependable what kind of equipment is on (fridge, waterpump, heating etc.) if we are not using anything for a longer while (f.i. through the week when we are not on board) it automatically goes to a saving mode in which it stays at 13.4 volts.
my service batteries are 3 victron 200 amp AGM. 
The victron charger settings are specifically set for AGM batteries.    
Bandy, Hanse 411 2003
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nilandhoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 11:53
We had problems with service battery voltage level over the summer and we think this was due to the high outside temp (yes even in the UK!) causing the fridge to work harder, 4+ hours use of the auto helm, plus use of the windlass and other instruments.

We have fitted a NASA Marine BM-2 battery monitor to give better information on what is happening to the batteries.  We can now see the level of charge and discharge rather than just the voltage level.

http://www.nasamarine.com/product/bm-2-battery-monitor/

Cheers

Paul
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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 12:30
I'm sat on my boat in the rain, so I'm doing some measurements. I have a digital multi meter, and I also have a BM 1 battery monitor on the house batteries.

The engine is on, so charging the batteries.

The little wurth panel shows Voltages that are higher than recorded by the multi meter and the BM 1 as follows

Engine battery.   Panel 14.4. Multi meter 14.2
HousE battery. Panel 14.3 multi meter 14.2 BM1 14.2
Bow thruster battery. panel 14.8 multi meter 14.4

I'm yet to understand how the bow battery is so high, given the
At it is charged from the same charger on the same circuit albeit via an intelligent relay.

However, what we can say is that the wurth panel Voltage's are wrong.

Once the charger settles down, the house and engine batteries appear to charge at around 14.1 or 14.2 in reality, or shown as slightly higher on the panel.


I've also taken the opportunity to record some loads on the battery, so I'll add that in another post
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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High Time View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 16:48
Mark
I think your 385 has the same charging set-up for the bow thruster as my 415 i.e. a battery to battery charger between the service batteries and the bow thruster. There is no direct mains charger or alternator connection to the bow thruster battery. The Sterling battery to battery charger on High Time, although set to AGM, keeps the bow thruster battery at 14.6V or a little higher - too high in my view, Maybe this is why your bow thruster battery is reading high?  
Roger

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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 18:15
Yes roger, that's what the wiring diagram says, but how can the. Bow battery be higher than the service battery in this configuration
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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karina View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote karina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 18:41
Hi Mark,

the reason is probably the battery-battery charger, which is inside a DC-DC-Converter. In simple words: Inside the converter the DC current from the service battery is chopped and transformed to a higher voltage and than again transformed to DC with a little bit higher voltage in order to charge the bow batterie. If you have a voltage warning on the bow battery, then probably the battery-battery charger might not work correctly.
By the way I think this is not a good electrical architecture, because the battery-battery chargers have normally a power lost of 15-20%.

BR,
Rainer 
live slow - sail fast!
S/Y Karina
Hanse 371 #32
Hamburg / Germany
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