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Differences 400 vs 415; plus & minus

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PSCOE View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 January 2024 at 15:57
I am in the process of deciding on a larger sailboat from my C&C 110, I have narrowed it down and I have either a Hanse 400e or 415 as one of the options and reserach I am doing.
Although 415 is a newer model, I go back to the 400 starting at 2008 and newer as a better option (and more sail trim options)
I was wondering if you could weigh in on your thoughts as owners of the 400.
My opinion as advantages and disadvantages:

Advantage for 400
- 400 has an option of a single wheel and open transom/transom bar. Although I like dual wheels, not sure why the market is pushing a dual wheel on a 40' sailboat. 
- What I have seen, 400 series starting from 2008 has flush hatches 
- LOA is nearly the same as the 415
- Big one for me - shrouds are on the inside of the deck, genoa tracks and additional sail option for a genoa where the 415 shourds on on the outside, only allowing the option to install tracks on the cabin top, which is not ideal as a improvement
- 415 does not have a mainsheet traveler where most of the 400 has a traveler 
- 415 seems to costs about $70k more than a 400, just a few years difference - $70k difference could be nice as a refit for a 400; purchase new lam sails, upgrade running rigging, etc...
- 415 has everything running back to the helm. Trying to make it easy to sail can become a big disadvantage and limits you in providing good sail trim and with a crew.

Advantage for 415
- 415 hull seems like a slighly better design, longer LWL, slightly faster and not sure if this is a good or bad change, stern is a few inches wider.
- 415 has a full full swim platform. 
- T-bulb keel
- Better interior

On the 415, seems like they made good improvements to the hull and keel but tried to simplify the sail trim / sailing part.

Thanks
Patrick
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Matt1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2024 at 19:50
I have a 418, so the same hull as a 415 but the 418 has the L Keel not T

Iíve always thought the 400 looked a sweet and nicely proportioned boat. Iíd imagine she has less wetted surface area and would guess she displaces less. Personally not a fan of T keels so donít see the lack of that as a disadvantage. 

You may have seen this review of the 400

Hanse 418 #64 EmBer. Hamble, UK

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PSCOE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2024 at 19:54
thanks - I will look at the review. I have been reading as much as I can on the two different models. 
Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 06:42
Hi Patrick 

They're reasonably close to each other in terms of purpose & build so I'd recommend having a serious think about how you like to sail: actual time likely spent living onboard, both in cockpit & salon.  Racing or cruising or both; are you a control-line tweaker or more relaxed? How long you realistically expect to own the boat.  Personal preferences; I hate dual wheels but others love them, for example.  Some folk might well prefer outside shrouds.

Small differences like the LOA are unlikely to make any difference at all in the real world except in the hands of a true expert or as a racing yardstick.  T-keels I regard as the invention of the devil if you cruise where crab-pots abound; they only became popular when the price of lead shot up and a lead keel is IMO far preferable anyway.

I know you're only just starting to whittle the choices down but the only way you're ever going to be able to decide is when you have two or more actual vessels to consider.  Given the similarities in design, I'd recommend choosing on the basis of what one feels right to you - and of course the cost.  Whatever you buy, I'd strongly advise keeping about 20% of the price back to pay for the inevitable upgrades, faults etc that you're certain to find you need.  One with recent sails, standing/running rigging and saildrive gaiter changes plus updated electronics will save you big bucks.  This forum contains a wealth of information on how people have adapted their boats to their own needs, from fridge insulation to swimming platforms so you can alter things later at your leisure.

Interestingly, I read the other day that 33% of call-outs to boats suffering engine or rig failures in the UK were to boats less than 6 months old.  Astounding statistic, which perhaps shows the value in buying a decently sorted older vessel.  

Good luck whatever you choose.

Iain

H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' now hibernating Gosport UK until April
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark_J1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 22:47
As Duncan Kent quoted me in the review of the 400, I guess youíd have to call me a biased witness!  So Iíll leave you to read my broad comments in the review :). 

However, picking on your Genoa comments specifically, how often are you prepared to change the sail on the foil while at sea?  How much time do you spend in light wind?  Whatís your average passage duration?  The Genoa on the 400 is in its element <12kts upwind. You can certainly hold it longer (much longer!) but the cross-over point with the STJ is about there. The Genoa is the same size as the main & sail swapping on deck is an art. Especially so solo!  Clearly the logic of a Code sail on the 418 is to cater for those that donít want this hassle. 

So that said, why would I have the Genoa?  Once you get to a Reach in say 14kts the boat really starts to take off!  Broad reaching in 16kts youíll be smiling!  And you can still turn upwind, roll some in and manage to hold 43-45 degrees to windward (with main reefed of course). Which isnít possible with a Code 0. So it gives a lot of flexibility. 

Downwind in the higher wind ranges it can be really helpful. Especially poled out. I actually have a pair of genoas and can load them both together to get 108SqM of downwind sail area for a very easy reefable sail plan. Thatís not much less than the Azzie at 124SqM & the symmetric at 140SqMíish. Makes for easy passage miles. 

I race on another boat with furling Azzie & Code 0. I see the attraction. If budget & space for storage were unlimited Iíd have them too. So in that sense the 400 as standard lets you do it all if you are minded too :)

Mark
Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brufan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2024 at 08:30
I might be more critical...
When H400 has been designed (back in mid 2000') by J&V they made a "fast cruiser".
Then Hanse group purchase DEHLER.  This Dealer brands aim to provide "fast & light cruiser / racer"  So, by early 2010', Hanse brand made more comfy, more heavy, easy to handle.  Gadgets to sail fast disappeared (even as optional), usually one pair of winches only, masts were lower and set more backward to increase fore triangle, ... Hulls became wider (very wider at bow section) The aim was to compete with Bavaria's and Oceanis.
As for quality, since 15 years now, Hanse management has turn "penny pinching" as company religion.  Some costly to build "luxuries" disappeared (I have a H355 which is H350 minus 2 lockers, 4 hull windows, 2 hatches less and simpler interior but I still could order 2 pair of winches, sail tracks, ...).  OK, the xx5 gen yachts are roomier, bulkier, and might be more comfy but this comes at a (performance) price compared to the xx0 generation.


Edited by Brufan - 23 January 2024 at 08:31
Bruno

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S/Y Spicy Ginger

White hull, 2 cabins, Volvo D1-30, Selden rig, removable mainsheet track system, Simrad (now B&G)-Jefa autopilot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2024 at 09:42
My 400 from 2006 is with side windows opening inward. After 18 years I still have no problems whatsoever. Later models (from 2008/9 i imagine) were delivered with different side windows in tinted acrylic glass, opening outward. If you go to the right top of this page and use "Search->Advanced search->Hanse 400->"side windows"->Any date->"
you will find that the later models had problems with leaking windows.
In 18 years my most costly repair was 2 broken engine mounts (Advanced search->"broken engine mounts"), which the Hanse yard had installed wrongly.
My boat is now of an age so I have to consider a change of the standing rigging, but otherwise the cost of maintaining the Hanse 400 has been low. As maintenence I have changed the saildrive diaphragm and the brass seacocks (Advanced search-> "seacocks"), and I believe that only the most reckless of sailors is still cruising with the old brass seacocks.
Many H400 owners have had problems with the Yanmar SD50 saildrive (Advanced search->"SD50"), but (knock on wood) my saildrive clutch still has no slip after 18 years. It is important though, to use the GL4 oil for the saildrive, NEVER GL5!
:Kjeld



Edited by Captain Cook - 23 January 2024 at 09:43
Freya H400 #27 (2006), 40HP 3JH4E, 2-cabin, 3-blade Flexofold, Aries LiftUp Windvane, Exturn 300, Jefa DD1,Simrad NX40,Icom M603(VHF)+M802(SSB)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2024 at 23:26
My 10 cents....
H400 is a fun, easy to sail yacht with a fairly practical layout.
Some issues you would consider...
Wiring is not tinned, it suffers from early corrosion and is difficult to access, i guess this would be the same for all models of Hanse.
The anchor winch if fitted is designed so that the chain will not fall into the chain locker on its own. I think Hanse have carried this design flaw on to most of their designs.
There was a time where the rudder was bonded to the common bonding system which caused considerable corrosion to occur to the aluminium rudder post (Hanse issued a notice to rectify this but you should pull the rudder and check for corrosion to be sure of the condition).
The under deck jib furler found in newer 400's are stiff to operate, you will find many posts on this if you search.
Outward operating portholes tend to leak and require attention as stated above.
Factory fitted hot water service was made from mild steel and quickly rusted out. I would assume that these would mostly be replaced by now, mine went 2 years ago (2008 #526).
There is considerable conversations regarding the SD50 sail drive and in particular its clutch slipping and which oil to use (search function is your friend here again).
Overall i would highly recommend the 400, If you were prepared to put the savings from a newer model into a refit you would no doubt have a quality yacht that you would enjoy for years to come. This site has been super helpful to me as i have upgraded our 400 into a super reliable cruiser/racer (albeit more slanted towards cruising).
Hope this helps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2024 at 07:24
It sounds like you have answered this for yourself.  
The 415/8 carries the beam aft, hence it requires dual wheels so you can see the sails from the wheel.
All lines come back to the helm and there is no traveller or Genoa option as Hanse have gradually moved their objective for the brand from "performance" (now handled by the Dehler range) to "easy to sail".  
I'm guessing if you want to tweak everything with a full crew the 415/8, and maybe even Hanse, are not right for you.
When buying my 385 (new 2015) I had also looked at 7-8 year old 370 models which were about 50k less than a new boat.
I had no regrets getting the new boat and have since traded in for a new 458.
Most of my sailing is solo or with one inexperienced crew.
There will be many owners of 370 and 400 models who would not swap for newer boats.
There are no rights or wrongs here.  All boats involve a compromise.  I love the brand and I'm certain that you will be happy with whichever Hanse you choose.
H458 #159 Primal Mediterranean cruising
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PSCOE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2024 at 23:32
Thank you. So many good posts and advice.
Very helpful.


Edited by PSCOE - 24 January 2024 at 23:34
Patrick
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