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FCL delamination

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kipwrite View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 October 2015
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipwrite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: FCL delamination
    Posted: 03 October 2019 at 12:49
The self tacker on my 505 has begun to delaminate, 4 years old. Boat is used year round, this sail shares duty with a 105 Genoa and on occasion a gennaker. We cruise between Bahamas and Maine.  

By the tack, there is a section thatís delaminated on one side. Possibly caused by furling in a wrinkle. 

In a few other places a few inches of the inner layer of the sail is cracked, along folds, along the leech. 

My sailmaker suggested heíd seen worse and thought I could get more use out of it. I had read that once these sails begin to delaminate and split, they are at the end of their service life. 

How do you know itís time to retire a sail?



Kipwrite
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415 Singapore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2019 at 14:13
Hi, ours delaminated totally within 4 years, despite having UV proof covers when not in use. The clew of the main just ripped out and on closer examination you could feel the delamination. They also make a different noise when you try and fold them up, hard to describe but sounds like stiff tissue / grease proof paper. 
We found that once they started to delaminate, the loads spread and the sail was useless fairly quickly 
All the best
Paul
Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2019 at 14:51
Our Sailmaker suggested that laminated cruising sails were not a good idea in areas of high UV. He recommended Dimension polyant hydra-net. This is a reinforced single skin fabric and can be cleaned and cannot delaminate. He also (bravely?) suggested that these could last upto 10 years with care. Six months in and we are very pleased with them, initially quite a stiff fabric but performance wise they are the same or better than the new FCL sails we got with the boat
All the best 
Paul
14/01/2019
Hanse 415
Mainsail
________________________________________________________________
Dimensions:
Lu 16.05m Ft 5.5m
_______________________________________
Surface Area:
48.9 sqm
_______________________________________
Construction:
Radial cut from Dimension Polyant Hydra-Net
Radial 393/433
Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2019 at 19:46
Kipwrite, I'm having the same problem with my main - an aftermarket sail made by UK (Carbon tape drive). Sadly, this is very common on a laminate sail. We've started adding reinforcements on the leach to add life and am expecting about 2 more years from it. The problem is most on the leach and a bit on the luff. 

Our #1, same construction is even worse. This sail has seen a lot of use and is always folded and packed - in a bag so it adds a lot of stress. After 5 seasons it is pretty much done as the splitting of the laminate material is in so many locations you don't know where to start or stop....


Edited by Rubato - 03 October 2019 at 19:46
Steve

Hanse 400e, #168
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2019 at 23:34
I highly recommend hydranet.    I had hydranet sails for 10 years on my last boat and they were awesome.   Not just for avoiding delamination (its woven, not laminated) but they don't get the "measles" (mildew between the layers) that laminated sails get.    You get dirt or something on the sail,  you just clean it off.     No possibility of anything growing between the layers.     I know that sailmakers claim that they have biocides to fight this, but I still see spots on 1 and 2 year old sails.  Add to that the improved UV resistance and you have a winner.   Hydranet is the *ONLY* woven cloth usable for radial cut sails.  Its not dacron but a spectra blend.  Its strong enough along the bias for the panels to be sewn without layered cloth.  

The full battened hydrranet main on my Leisurefurl boom looked great after 10 years.  I sold the boat and the new owner is still using it after 2 more.     The 135% genoa looked great but obviously had a bit more stress on it from tacking as well as going thru the slot on my cutter rig.   Both were tri-radial cut and performed really well.

On my 575 I went with the HPM sails as the Elvstrom EPEX technology has a good reputation for cruising lives of 8 years or more.    I'll let you know how well this plays out. :-)







Edited by Black Diamond - 03 October 2019 at 23:36
Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StavrosNZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2019 at 01:23
I have laminated sails made by Doyles, Doyle Stratis technology, 6 years old and in excellent shape, i agree with other posts of 8 years ish for good quality Laminated sails.

Like all factory new sails the originals are made to a tight budget set by the buyers at Hanse, quality and longevity reflects this.


Edited by StavrosNZ - 04 October 2019 at 01:23
Stephen
2010 H400 #691, Auckland, New Zealand
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2019 at 08:46
Black Diamond
Quote--Hydranet is the *ONLY* woven cloth usable for radial cut sails--Unquote

I have Hyde Fibrecon is that the same material under a different brand name? My mainsail is tri radial


Edited by samuel - 04 October 2019 at 08:53
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2019 at 11:00
probably.  Hydranet is Dimension/Polyant's name.  My sails were made by Quantum and that was the cloth they used..

Originally it was a spectra blend.   Now its made with dyneema, so this sounds right.   The key charracteristic is that its a high tech fiber woven to a density that allows radial cut panels without laminated layers being required.    Woven cloth and radial panels require a special cloth.




Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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kipwrite View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipwrite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2019 at 17:16
My 105 is made out of Hydranet, put together via Doyle in City Island NY. Very nice material, a few years old and still in perfect shape. Agree this is a good way to go. 

Iíve decided to nurse another year out of my failing and somewhat moldy FCL self tacker, on the recommendation from my sail maker, but Iím very suspicious of it, and wonít rely on it for passages. If it blows apart (hopefully not!) Iíll post some photos. 


Edited by kipwrite - 04 October 2019 at 20:00
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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2019 at 07:47
elvestrom in Turkey suggested that the delamination of our main was caused by the sailed being stored wet after being serviced (by another maker), and they say it isnít common problem for sails stored wet.
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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