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lifepo4 batteries

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colinc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2020 at 00:36
The question of amp hour comparisons between lead acid and lithium batteries is a good one. There isn't a simple answer.  There are two parts to the answer to this.  Firstly the usable capacity of the battery and the second its overall lifetime.

First of all capacity.  A lithium battery still provides a good voltage when deeply discharged.  It will go on working to 90% discharge whereas a lead acid battery struggles after 70%.  However both of those is really pushing it and will harm the battery.  A better maximum capacity would be 70% for the lithium and 50% for lead acid.  So a 200 Ah sized lithium gives roughly the same working capacity as a 300 Ah lead acid.

However you also need to look at battery life.   For both lead lithium and lead acid the deeper you discharge the less discharge cycles you get.  And the cut off is quite marked - so discharging lithium to 70% will give about a quarter of the number of cycles as discharging to only 30%.   This applies to lead acid too - but there you are not going to try to discharge so far.   One of the advantages quoted for lithium is that the battery will last much longer and so justify the much higher initial cost.   With frequent deeper discharge this benefit is seriously eroded.

So lithium can discharge further - and also can last a lot longer - but not both.  Or at least not as much as the lithium battery salespeople with claim.

On a boat I think you need to work out two figures - how many amps do you need in normal day-to-day and how many amps worst case without damaging the battery too much.   On my boat that means I take my lead acid batteries down to no lower than 30% of full charge - with 50% only in an emergency.   I recently replaced them all and considered lithium and nearly went that way.   However good lead acid batteries were very easy to source (with a good discount) - and will be easy to get maintained.  That isn't true for lithium - yet.   That may depend on where you keep your boat.
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Captain Cook View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2020 at 12:16
I have the Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60A set to AGM batteries, because the single lead acid battey can live with that setting, and the Calira Stromat "Ladestromsverteiler" has the engine-battery (Lead) connected to the II terminal. (Sometimes the Hanse yard has misplaced this  cable!). When the alternator is feeding the batteries, the engine-battery is filled first, and when the voltage reach 13,8V, the two relays are closed/connected to feed my AGM batteries. The relays are closed only when the engine-battery is >13,8V, so it is not possible to drain the AGMs through the Stromat.
My 3 battery groups are: 100Ah Lead acid for engine, 190Ah AGM (2x95) for winch/anchor, and 380Ah AGM (4x95) for service.
Last year I replaced an 88Ah Lead-acid battery with a 100Ah after a lifespan of 7+ years. All seven years it has been charged at the AGM setting.


Edited by Captain Cook - 26 May 2020 at 12:28
Freya H400 #27 (2006), 40HP 3JH4E, 2-cabin, 3-blade Flexofold, Aries LiftUp Windvane, Exturn 300, Jefa DD1,Simrad NX40,Icom M603(VHF)+M802(SSB)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H8jer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2020 at 17:00
Today I had the chance to do some additional test and setup of the Sterling Altornater To Battery charger.
I got it secondhand, so I did not notice that it was in fact the the 130 amp model and not the 80 version. Nice surprise.

My Yanmar 3YM30 has a 60 amp Altornator (mayby Hitashi Brand). I measured several places but did not detect that it had a "Voltage Sensing" cable directly to the batteries. 



So I inserted the AB12130 in the wire from the Altornator. Engine started normal, but the AB12130 did'nt light up.

The reason was that My 370 came with a "Voltage Drop Free - Battery Isolator" that split the current from the Altornator to Starter-battery/Consumer/Winches_thruster.:

This Splitter has an "IG" input that the AB12130 needed. So When removing the IG to the AB12130 input the AB12130 turned on when the engined started.

But via the remote for the AB12130 I could see that the AB12130 did't do anything. (The Remote also has a built in Engine-hour Counter - nice) But this was because I only used the "Consumer" Output on the AB12130. So I removed the Starter-battery wire from the Splitter and extended it so it could be attached to the AB12130 Starter output.

Now it worked. The difference was huge. When in port and the engine in idle the voltage from the Altornator to the starter battery was 13,2 volt and the charge amps was 15 with almost full batteries. But the voltage to the consumer batteries was 14,4 volts. Then I turned off the AB12130 (It then stop altering the current/voltage, but lets the altornator take over).
In idle the charge current dropped to 0.5 amps and I could hear the engine sound different.
When on and above idle I saw 33+ amps with almost full batteries.

From the earlier replies in this thread - it points to the AB12xx/or the altornatoe is not able to do this for a longer period. I did only a prototype test-fitting, so I will have to learn that later on myself.

From Viviaenergi.dk I got 3 100AH lifepo4 batteries. They are rated for 14,6v boost and 14,4v and has builtin BMS with bluetooth (With Chinese Spyware app that needs gps/microphone/camera/call-lists+).

Both the Mains Charger(Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60amp) and the AB12130 can be set to lifepo4 (14,6v/14,4v) and when keeping the Splitter I think the boat is ready for a "swap" to lifepo4. I will keep the Calcium-Silver Starter battery.
I consider to drop the 2x100ah winch/thruster Lead batteries and replace them with 1-2 lifepo4 and let them join the Consumer-bank. But they will then be in different storage-lockers. I don't know if this is an good idea do to different cable lengths? (All batteries will have their own build-in BMs)

If anyone see any pittfalls in my thoughts please reply.

Thanks again for the valuable information that is provided on this forum.

/H8jer




Edited by H8jer - 14 June 2020 at 17:24
Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fendant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2020 at 18:11
I am also in the process to make the switch in the next weeks.
I have purchased 2 Victron LFP's with 100 A and a Victron Mini BMS and will start with the 2 this year.
The volume used by the 2 165 Ah AGM's would allow to install a third LFP at a later stage.
I looked at the Volvo D1-30 F manual and found out that I have an 115 Amo alternator.
My Sterling charger delivers  30 Amps.

The Victron dealer said, that I should keep the Sterling VSR ( which couples house and starter batteries ).
Between the Voltage Sensitive relay ( VSR ) and the LFP's he recommended to install a Cytric Li-Charge modul. He sees no need to change anything on the alternator.

Question:  Reading the posts here, do I run into a possible problem cookuîng and ruining my alternator ?

Thx on beforehand
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2020 at 11:50
Very interesting and timely thread!
Does anyone know whether the standard Quick shore-charger would need an upgrade? This is on a 2014 H385.
thanks
I
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rikard_Swe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2020 at 12:19
I installed Lifepo batteries in our old boat, and kept them when I sold the boat so last year when we got our Hanse I installed them without any big changes to the electric system. There is some information in my Threat Updates in a Hanse 400. 

As many systems mine is a Hybrid system with AGM starter battery and Lifpo house battery. I think as others - when the Lifepo is full the alternator continues to charge the starter battery. This will protect the alternator. 

I have a LVP - Low Voltage protect - if for some reason the battery bank will be dicharged. 

This and a good system for monitoring the energylevels, I use a Pico system. I will add some chunts to this so I can monitor refrigerators and heater - so I will know how much energy is needed for the different systems. 



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H8jer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H8jer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2020 at 19:03
Originally posted by Rikard_Swe Rikard_Swe wrote:

As many systems mine is a Hybrid system with AGM starter battery and Lifpo house battery. I think as others - when the Lifepo is full the alternator continues to charge the starter battery. This will protect the alternator.


Yes the Hybrid setup looks like the most easy way to do this upgrade.
But isn't overVoltage a problem? If I remember correctly my Altornator might provide 14,8volt. My new lifepo4 batteries shuts off at that voltage.
The risk is that without anything regulating the Alternator theres a risk you won't charge your lifepo4 batteries but only the old ones?

H8jer
Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Forth2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2020 at 21:07
H8jer, I just posted a reply, but it is not visible.
Apparently it needs to moderated.

Maybe I used some offensive words ?
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H8jer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H8jer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2020 at 21:10
Ok. Perhaps you could pm the post to me?

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H8jer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H8jer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 07:54
I was not able to post the message from forth2.
My takeway was that small top-up float charge should be avoided. Eg. Leaving the Mains Charger Always on Or having a fixed solar panel and a full battery is not the best idea.

Anyways. Yesterday I installed the Sterling Alt Pro C next to the charger and splitter.
Before:


Made a white plywood to fit the design:


After:


/H8jer


Edited by H8jer - 19 June 2020 at 08:19
Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin
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