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Jefa Steering

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415 Singapore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 09:25
Hi, further update on this now that I found the right contact at Jefa. Apparently the centre hub of the wheel is one piece of stainless steel, the 'bushings' are just cover plates to hide the welds of the spokes to the hub. So the hub cannot slip round.
Jefa say that there are 11 teeth on the sprocket behind the wheel, so if the chain jumped one tooth that would equate to 32.7 degrees which pretty much coincides with my guess of 35-40 degrees.
Jefa think it is more likely that the chain behind that wheel has stretched, allowing it to jump a tooth. There is no play between the wheels or the rudder now and I believe the tension in the cables / chains is correct so I am really not sure, but I will take the cables out and inspect it as they say a stretched chain should be visible.
Stay safe
Paul
Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 11:23
an interesting problem. Roller chainsnever "stretch" but they wear a small amount between pins, bushes and rollers which gives a small amount of elongation over the chain length, which may be perceived as "stretch" . Really an 11T sprocket should not be used in this type of application (IMHO), as there is too much polygonal action which means the chain-cable tension cannot he consistent. Yes, I have a very solid background in rolle rchain technology, being trained by the company who invented it, and used to deal with Bruce Farr on steering in the yachts he built in NZ in the 1970's -1980s.

If the 11T pinions(sprockets) are worm then they need replacing along with the chain. Don't replace separately.

Just my two pennies worth. 
Cheers




Edited by DJgun - 11 June 2021 at 11:25
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HIN DE-HANJ0331J708
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415 Singapore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 13:17
Hi DJ, I think I understand what you mean about polygonal action, but I guess there is a trade off between sprocket diameter and chain size, unless Jefa went to a smaller but double chain?
Hopefully I can get to the boat tomorrow and take the chain out
All the best
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 13:27
in the first weeks(2010)we sailed our Hanse 545 downwind in autopilot mode, in very high waves coming in under a backwards angle , the wheels response to move very nervous left and right with a lot noise and one off the cables jumped of the rudder kwadrant. We adjusted the tension of the cables a little and never it happened again.
Is it possible that this happens in your case and   that’s the chain has jumped up and move one theet ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 23:07
415 Singapore
Make sure when changing chain to get 316 stainless chain not 304.  The 304 chain is magnetic and will affect compass etc. Same for the sprocket. 316 is unfortunately the most expensive, but must be used. You should be able to reuse the end pieces which connect to the cables.

It is probably worth lubricating the chain with a spray type chain lube on a regular basis to maximise life. Bicycle shops have a lot of good chain lube products, and it will improve chain life, and smooth action too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2021 at 09:15

I have been back to the boat to have another look at everything prior to taking out the cables and chains. I measured the angle between the wheels with my iphone and got between 33 and 34 degrees which would seem to confirm that the chain has indeed slipped one tooth.

However with very little slack in the system I don’t understand how it could jump the 3 or 4 teeth that are fully connected with the chain. I had thought that this had happened whilst going downwind when there was a lot of load on the rudder and helm, but if one side of the system is seriously loaded I can’t see how it could jump teeth. I am beginning to think that tacking upwind in fairly extreme conditions is more likely to cause this, as the load is swapping from one cable / chain to the other fairly quickly but with a period  of minimal load in between.

I took the wheel and the bearing cover off again, having loosened the cables at the rudder head and pulled the cog forward as much as possible, while someone else slowly turned the port wheel lock to lock, I looked at the chain and cog wheel teeth, I couldn’t see any problems with them.

Having looked on this forum to see how others had approached removing the cables, I could only find advice for different models which suggested that there was another piece of cockpit floor that needed removing for access. However as you can see from the photo below the pedestals are mounted on this piece of floor on the 415. I have also attached a photo of the area below this panel and one of the exposed cog wheel.

Does anyone know if I can remove the cable and chain without removing the piece of floor and whole steering assembly. I can just about reach the pulleys below the floor but certainly can’t remove them or their pins.
All the best
Paul





Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breeze On Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2021 at 03:08
 I replaced all steering cables on my 415 last year after one section rusted & frayed.  Each pedestal is held in place by 4 bolts/nuts.  I was able to reach the nuts & remove them but it’s a very tight workspace. Needed a long throated socket, the bolts are long (you see one in your second photo, I think). Once that was done I lay the pedestal down, disconnected the sprocket & removed the chain to get to the connecting links.  The new cable fit in without removing the pulley. My pedestals had no sikaflex at the bottom & I think that is what led to the corrosion of the cable. 


George & Bev

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2021 at 08:21
Hi George, thanks for the reply and for the drawing, very useful. If you managed to fit the new cable without removing the pulleys, do you think it is possible to pull through with a mousing line? I would like to avoid having to take the pedestals out if I can Smile
All the best
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2021 at 08:35
Thinking about that! It was a silly question as the chain obviously won't got through the pulleys!
Forget I asked Embarrassed
Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2021 at 08:48
I just received these instructions from Jefa:

To take the chain out:

  1. Dismount the wire connection to the quadrant.
  2. Dismount the central chain in front of the quadrant.
  3. Dismount the bulkhead steerer.
  4. Pull the bulkhead steerer out of the hole in the pedestal, and you should have the chain follow out of the hole.
  5. When the chain is detached from the wire ends, bind some string to it to not lose the wires down the pedestal.
I will try this and see if I can fine the cause.
All the best
Paul
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