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Inspection access to below shower floor area?

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Schjell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 May 2023 at 08:37
Hi,
After my boat was ashore for a saildrive "diaphragm" seal replacement (it was 11 years old) I discovered a minor leak coming through a crack in the epoxy/glue/filler that cements the hull to the liner. It's located next to the seawater intake to the head.

I had a technician come past to check it and we both thought it would be wise to get the boat on land again.
We did this and a 30 years of experience surveyor from my insurance company came and had a look.
He was convinced that this water likely originated from coolant water in the engine/hoses when the guys had to place the engine out in the galley area to gain access.

As for the crack/delamination, I, nor the seller, had seen this before, but I'm guessing this is sh*t that sometimes happens down the line on an aging run-of-the-mill factory boat when it's placed on its keel, again and again. It is worth mentioning that the keel did strike ground with side drift (at 1-2 knots) under sail aboout 5 years ago, but insurance company found no damage apart from a little scratch on the keel.
(Steel keel, short version BTW). I sailed the boat 100 nm after purchase, no water then, so leak started post launch. The surveyor I had could not see any hull or keel evidence of striking ground.

Anyways - to cut this story short. 
We are talking about a very minute "leak", I'm guessing less than a liter in total since discovered three weeks ago. It has disappeared and then reappeared.
It tastes salt, so I am inclined to believe that this water somehow is coming from my seawater intake hose and then somehow is finding its way to this crack through the "girders". I don't think its from the motor anymore, since that's three weeks ago. Not sure though.

I am however not sure how to gain access to the area below the shower floor - I want to see if its wet or dry. Will buy a snakecam if there are no other options.
As a first step I will add tracer dye to the toilet and flush that in, but there is no smell from this, so pretty sure I'm not leaking black water.

As the surveyor, I don't think there's a breach in the hull - this has gotta be water originating from the inside.

All tips welcome, love my boat, and so did the seller who is happy to take it back, so all is good. Just need to get to the source of this - it's doing my and the sellers head in! Once dry and leak path established, the seller has agreed to cover costs for remediating the cracks with epoxy.



2012 Hanse 385 - Second owner
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Ian2019 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian2019 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2023 at 11:15
Hi sorry to hear and see this. A couple of thoughts, from your photo this look to me as the crack extends to the hull as shown bottom right. I have just measured my hull and it’s is about 1 cm thick here. I have just had my SD diaphragm changed and they put the engine on wooden blocks right where the toilet intake is assuming they did the same with yours. I asked about the weight of the engine and they reckoned about 100kg. Could this have stressed the hull and caused it to crack? Unlikely!
When you landed the boat did they put a shore near the toilet intake? Causing the stress from underneath.
I would suggest shutting off the toilet sea cock and putting some paper towel in the sea intake well and see if they get wet this would eliminate the hose joint. 
As for the keel, it doesn’t extend that far back so would be surprised if slight grounding or being ashore would cause this. 
H385 #317 2014 Tivat Montenegro
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Schjell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schjell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2023 at 12:22
Hi,
Below is a picture as how the boat was supported whilst on land, there was a brace on each side in the area, but don't think it would cause enough local pressure to make a crack, but no idea really, just guessing. The hull should be able to take it in any case.

As for the lift in question onto land, I was not present as they called me at 7AM when I was getting the kids ready for school..It's a shame for them and me that I was not there, but a forgiving factor is that they are one of the largest and most professional yards/marinas in my neck of the woods, everything is insured and they have CCTV surveillance of everything. So fortunately when they say they didn't have a hard landing, I believe them. They're top notch, honest guys in my book.

Could just be a case of bad luck if there is a crack in the hull; an inherent production flaw weakness such as a small gas pocket in the resin, a crack just waiting to happen, who knows.

I agree that the weight of the engine could not have caused this, seems unlikely.

But the water that's seeping out through the base of the crack is consistently very murky, which gives me hope that it might be from the sea water intake hosing or coolant water from the engine from when they disconnected all the engine hosing - there must have been some spillage I would have thought although the bilge pump area was bone dry. If it's seeping in from the sea through the hull from somewhere nearby I would expect the water to be more clear, but again my guess is as good as yours - it's a big mystery.

Will get to the bottom of it though and will post the findings here as reference for future unfortunate souls. In any case it will be fixed - would just like it to stop and dry out so that it can be fixed whilst the boat is on the water.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts around this BTW!


2012 Hanse 385 - Second owner
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Rock View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2023 at 15:10
Sorry for the off-topic question; is your collar piece (front piece of the Mandrop, around the mast) upside down ?
Hanse 400e "M-square2" #0241
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Schjell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schjell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2023 at 15:14
Haha, I believe it is😅
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Schjell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schjell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 21:23
"Leak" has stopped, so couldn't have been from outside of the hull thankfully. That is unless polyester can saturate and seal like a wooden boat. It can't can it? 😅
Thanks for all tips.

Kind regards
John
2012 Hanse 385 - Second owner
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Goat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 17:28
We (2016 385) have had a very similar minor leak accumulating in the same spot and under the sink.  The quantity was very variable and only seemed to occur when sailing - not when alongside for a while.  To further complicate it we have just repaired a leak on the shower due to a burst pipe.

After mopping out the bilges many times I searched around elsewhere for water.  I found some under the rear port bunk.  When I started mopping that out it was warm which quickly led me to a drip from the water heater explaining the intermittent nature of the leak.  So;

1.  It's worth checking the FW system, does the water pump run intermittently with a brief buzz?  The water in ours tasted salty but I think it was just grime from bilges (lovely tasty stuff).  Also water is held in the closed sections within the bilge and drains when on a heel making it look worse.

2.  Does anyone know what make and size the plastic pipes are? We are going to need to change a coupling (has anyone done this?).

3.   We will probably need to remove the front panel of the rear bunk, it looks like it's glued.  Has anyone managed this without snapping the wood and any tips?

Sorry this is such a long post but it seemed to fit with John's issue.

Fair winds!!

Adrian  
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Schjell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schjell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 20:42
Thanks for your tips Adrian!
The previous owner added a hose and a plastic bottle to the water heater. Every time it pressurizes it let's out a little squirt, which is probably what you have had I'm guessing. Could be that it was what I've been seeing as well, hard to suss out. I forgot to empty the bottle, so had a little water under the port side bunk. Long term plan is to get rid of the bottle and have this water pushed out through the stern over the water line.
Anyways, this weekends project is fitting a shorepower transformer (seperate post in this forum) - always something to do it seems, pristine boat or notSmile

2012 Hanse 385 - Second owner
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Tranquillity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tranquillity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 23:10
If your hotwater tank is dripping at the expansion valve have your thought about an expansion tank to take off the pressure when water expands? 

This post is might help.... Worked brilliantly for us and nice dry bilge again.
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Schjell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schjell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2023 at 05:58
That's beautiful - thank you a lot! 
2012 Hanse 385 - Second owner
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