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588 Battery Bank

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s/v Zingara View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 January 2023 at 23:52
Just wondering what you are using for a house battery Bank.  Our boat had 15 AGM firefly Oasis batteries that completely failed.   15 batteries seems a little excessive, and I was wondering what you find sufficient for normal cruising and day sailing?  Unfortunately a lithium conversion isn't in the budget right now, so we will probably go with standard AGM batteries.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks,
Zingara
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Arcadia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2023 at 18:18
My 588 came with (4) AGM 165 Ah batteries under the port side cushions. I added (4) more Victron AGM  12-165 under the starboard cushions on a platform. They are the same physical size and capacity as the ones on port. This gave me a total of about 1300 amp-hours. Very easy install.  That was in 2018 and still have most of my capacity and I use them hard but never go below 50%.  I wired them with a switch that can select either bank separately or both together. They are economical and will drop right in.
Leon / ARCADIA
2018 Hanse 588
Sag Harbor, NY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2023 at 00:07
15 Firefly batteries?    I have no idea why that would be needed.

First,  our 575 house bank is 6 Firefly batteries for a bank size around 800AH.     The boat came with 4 Victron 165AH batteries that crapped out after 2 years.   Not happy.   On my prior boat I had Lifeline AGMs (7 of them - 4 8Ds in the house bank and a few focused on engine, thruster, etc.).  I was happy with the lifeline's but wanted something better.

While the Firefly batteries are managed and treated as standard AGM, they are different technology.   I went with the carbon foam technology because it allows for deeper discharge while still giving you 12+ volts.  A 1300AH bank that only lets you get to 70% SOC before it drops to 11V is only giving you 390AH of actual use.   An 800AH bank of carbon foam batteries that let you discharge to 50% (say) SOC before the voltage drops is actually giving you more usable AH.   I've seen 12.5V at 50% SOC during my testing. 

I did not go with the Lithium-Ion batteries because there is a lot of collateral damage (charging system, regulator, etc.) to be considered.   Nothing changed with Carbon Foam.  All parameters on the charger and other devices get set to AGM. 

So far I have been pleased with the Firefly batteries.  Combined with my solar (800AH of Solbian panels on the bimini) I rarely have electrical shortages.




Edited by Black Diamond - 14 January 2023 at 00:12
Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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Arcadia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2023 at 01:06
11 volts at 50% discharge sounds like the bank was shot, maybe prematurely.  As I said, mine are going strong, and I get well over 12 volts at 50%.  The Firefly’s are nice, but that does come at a price. I guess there’s no magic solution when it comes to the Holy Grail of energy storage.
Leon / ARCADIA
2018 Hanse 588
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pzucchel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2023 at 08:12
I have replaced the service batteries with two MLI ultra (LFP), 11kWh capacity with lithium. I prefer to talk about kWh because voltages are slightly different,  in particular when they are not at 100% (if you talk about Ah you're overestimating the energy stored into an AGM with respect to lithium). Simply,  the best investment i have made on Andrew,  together with 1.2kW peak power solbian solar panels on the t-top. The bms of the lithium batteries is extremely intelligent, and it removes any worry for damage. For example,  i programmed it to shut off at 10% (despite lithium iron can go to zero and to 100% without issues).

Btw: It was easy to modify the charger parameters under guidance from mastervolt.


Edited by Pzucchel - 15 January 2023 at 08:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2023 at 15:34
Its interesting...   you have the what I call the triangle of battery decision making...

Size (of the battery - will it fit?)
Chemistry/Technology (AGM, LiF04, Carbon Foam, Lead/Acid)
AH rating (200AH, 100AH, etc.)

I can't imagine putting more than 5 or 6 batteries into a house bank as all it takes is one bad cell in one battery to bring the whole bank down to 10V (or so).  Then you need to find which battery (out of the 15 we heard before) and then take it out of the bank to get your voltage back up.   15 batteries.   Do a resting test....   etc..etc..   I really liked the 8D's I had on my last boat. No room on this one.  200AH each and I had 5 in the house bank.   Of course, one bad battery costs a lot more...   

I've never seen a normal AGM battery carry 12V below (say) 70% SOC.   Even brand new.  I'm sure LiFP04 might,  but if you have a normal set of Victron Group 31 AGMs that come with th boat its unlikely you will get 12V at anything close to 50% SOC.   Assuming you have a decent metering system that counts amps in and out, etc..


Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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s/v Zingara View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s/v Zingara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2023 at 00:32
Thank you for all of your help.  I've decided to go with 6 AGM 105  amp hour batteries.  This is the least expensive option and available locally.  If we need to add more later we can. 

In our case we had 15 firefly oasis batteries installed by the previous owner.  Unfortunately, they were damaged when we got the boat and never had a chance to enjoy them.  My guess is we were getting less than 600 amp hours out of the whole bank from the start.   I spoke with the manufacturer and they sent this email:

 We recommend only 4 parallel strings for uniform and equal distribution of current during charge - discharge cycle / usage conditions.

Charge all your batteries individually or in series at 5 Amos using a constant current charter till individual BATTeRS records 14.40V and continue charming for 6 more hours till BATTeRS boltahe reach around 16 V.

Then use 15 equal length equal cross section cables either side of the battery terminals and to the Nadir of 15 cables on either side connection the load n charger cables.

Put this bank for regular usage and check the performance and uniform current distribution with DC clamp meter

At shore,  5 to 6 hours float charging  per month of non usage is enough.

The 15 batteries were in 2 banks of 6 and one of 3, and were charged on shore power most of their life.  Only the bank of 3 batteries survived.  My guess is heat and prolonged charging did them in.  Unfortunately, Firefly is out of business so there is no warranty options. 

Hopefully, we will have better luck with cheaper lower tech batteries, until we can convert to Lithium. 

Zingara  
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Edited by s/v Zingara - 17 January 2023 at 00:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2023 at 10:09
Originally posted by s/v Zingara s/v Zingara wrote:



In our case we had 15 firefly oasis batteries installed by the previous owner.  Unfortunately, they were damaged when we got the boat and never had a chance to enjoy them.  My guess is we were getting less than 600 amp hours out of the whole bank .



The 15 batteries were in 2 banks of 6 and one of 3, and were charged on shore power most of their life.  Only the bank of 3 batteries survived.  My guess is heat and prolonged charging did them in.

Zingara
Zingara
Where all the old 15 firefly’s 12V in parallel ?
 Our 2V our 4V  serial ? Up to 12V bank’s and than parallel?
2 banks 6x2V (12V)  and one 3x4v((12V)?gives you 3banks of 12V 
 our all 4V 3x4V (12V)? gives you total of 5 banks 12V in parallel .
Wild and Wet
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s/v Zingara View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s/v Zingara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2023 at 15:41
Yes the batteries were all wired together in parallel.  They made up one large bank, due to the space they were physically separated into 3 groups. 

Zingara
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Diamond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2023 at 17:29
Interesting.   I still have trouble with the idea of 15 batteries in one large bank 

Was there any solar or wind power charging it?


Rick
S/V Black Diamond
Hanse 575 Build #192, Hull# 161
Newport, RI
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