myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website

Welcome to myHanse.com the forum for Hanse Yachts owners throughout the world.

Forum Home Forum Home > Hints & Tips > 320
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Turnbuckles
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Turnbuckles

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Message
shaukaas View Drop Down
Commadore
Commadore


Joined: 04 August 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaukaas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2011 at 03:00
The summer is here soon, I better be prepared for it!

This winter I've "de-rigged" my 320, and when stepping the mast back up I want everything to be "perfectly" in order. My experience on tuning the rig is limited; as I've gone with the tuning from the shipyard for now. This did not work very well last season, as the heading angle seemed to be a few degrees higher on one leg, compared to the other. This is probably something that occurred last season (2009) when I had the mast off for 2 days - mounting a LED tricolor, anemometer and VHF antenna...

Well - rig tension:
It seems to me like the correct model for tuning a rig for the H320 is the Loos PT-2m (m = metric.) This one should be suitable for wire dimensions from 5,6 &7 mm. (I guess, as I've forgot my measures, that the rigging on the 320 is 5,6 & 7 mm?)

My questions are:
1. Is it possible to use the imperial version on my metric wire? Or will this turn out to be less accurate? (This is half the price compared to my local store, if ordered from the US. There are none metric available up to my knowledge.)

2. My understanding is that the turnbuckles are to be tightened, so the tension is close to 20% of the breaking load. What are the specific max tension for the 5,6 & 7 mm wire?

3. Should the backstay be measured too? (Or should I just use visual tuning/getting a straight forestay when going upwind?)
S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171

LG3600 - NOR13510


Back to Top
CharlesP View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral


Joined: 23 September 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1208
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CharlesP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2011 at 00:02
Shaukaas - regarding your opening remarks re heading angle, this can be because of slight differences in the port and stbd undrwater shape of hull, or tuning differences between port and stbd shrouds, or the mast not being absolutely perpendicular to the beam - I can tell you how to go about achieving this if you are not sure.

The rigging on my 320 is 5,6 and 7mm so assume yours may be the same.

1. I read somewhere, perhaps on this forum, that the difference between metric and imperial Loos gauges is simply the label giving tensions which is stuck on the back. Perhaps the manufacturer could confirm this. The manufacturer could also tell you the difference btween metric and imperial wire, if indeed there is any difference.

2. The breaking load for 1 x 19 stainless steel wire is, 5mm 2204kg; 6mm 3104kg; 7mm 4304kg. So from these you can calculate any percentage.
Unfortunately there has been much debate on this Forum about rigging tension, but with no conclusion, so I don't know whether your 20% of breaking load is correct for the 320. If I assume it is, you should first tension cap shrouds to 15% of breaking load; then approximately straighten mast by tightening the lower shroud mainly and the intermediate shroud slightly. (do all this and next steps with no tension in backstay)
Then increase cap shrouds to your 20% preferred tension (I will use something lower); then straighten mast again but more precisely using lower shrouds mainly and intermediate shrouds.
Then you tension the backstay to your normal hard on position but do not exceed 20% breaking load (remember that backstay has a bridle so bridle should not exceed 10% breaking load). With backstay on, check cap shroud tension and increase back to your 20% breaking load; then let go backstay completely and check that shroud cap shroud tension is not more than 25% breaking load.

Charles
'MERIDIAN LADY'

320 Nr 536 2010

Medway
Back to Top
shaukaas View Drop Down
Commadore
Commadore


Joined: 04 August 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaukaas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2011 at 03:17
Charles,

Excellent! At least this is something to keep me going in a few months - when the boat is scheduled to go back into the water...

I do wonder how you proceed to determine if the mast is straight? Is this a visual "measure" or do you use some kind of physical measure? (halyard with a "stone" - to make a "sightline"?)

From what I've been able to find on the Internet, there are small deviations from metric to imperial sized wires. Of course this is possible to calculate, but I don't know if its worth all the "fuzz" just to save a few penny's?

Does anyone have practical experience using the Loos PT-2 on a Hanse, or any other boat?
S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171

LG3600 - NOR13510


Back to Top
Windsurfer View Drop Down
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 07 April 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 614
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2011 at 23:39
Charles...do you think it's fine to tighten the shrouds up to 25%??? It really sounds scary for me...Now that I have 2 tension gauges (thanks Henrik) I've made some rig tuning throughout last couple of weeks...First thing I have to say that the rig was amzingly undertensioned...I only had some 4-5% on cap shrouds...no wonder why the leevard got really slack underway...My current setting is about 14-15% in cap shrouds, 12 in main and about 7-8% in intermediate (this is the max tension I could reach in intermediate shouds as the turnbuckles are screwed all the way in)...What can I say...I've tested this setup under load in 30+ winds with and without reefing...the leevard shourds almost never got slack...the rig feels solid almost in all situations and I do not feel any need so far to increase the tension...The thing that bothers me is that the forestay is sometimes slack and is vibating in gusts and there's no obvious way to tension it without shortening the wire....and of course I dislike the fact that intermediate shouds are at max setting while still a bit undetensioned.....
 
Stian...I belive you might have to get the metric version instead of the imperial as only the metric version of the PT-2 covers our range (5,6 and 7 wires)...I'm not sure however you need to reverify this before you make your orders...I guess the Loos gauge is similar to other non-elctronic gauges, maybe just a bit more accurate so I've decided to get 2 much cheaper gauges instead...I can now compare readings between these for the 6mm wire and I can now certainly say that they show pretty much the same...these gauges are really easy to use there's no rocket science here...the only problem is that we don't really know what are the right crusing&racing tension setting for the 320 rig..there's only guesses so far...nevertheless these tools are a great help....
As for the mast straightness - I believe a regular visual check is just about enough, but for fine tunning you might wanna try to use the laser tool...even the ones that kids play with will do i guess...in the evening you will have to slowly "lay down" the beam along the mast - you will see exactly if it's straight or not...the rest is a compromise...
Good luck and let us know what are your settings when you're finished tunning the rig...
Hanse 320 #079
White hull, tiller, short keel and rudder, standard North sails, Sparcraft rig
Back to Top
CharlesP View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral


Joined: 23 September 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1208
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CharlesP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2011 at 14:18
Alex - regarding tightening cap shrouds to 25%, I was simply answering Shaukaas about maximum tension for wires. Shaukaas considered that 20% was his normal requirement for cap shrouds (I said that mine was less); therefore if you apply "your" maximum backstay and, then adjust cap shrouds to "your" preferred 20%, you must then recheck cap shrouds with backstay off to ensure strain on wire is less than 25% (which gives a 4 to 1 safety margin on breaking strain).
Personally, I believe a cap shroud tension of between 10 and 15% will suit me and my 320, BUT, I have only had my boat a few months and was not able to do the on water checks to verify this yet.

Thanks for the information about your tensions which seem to verify my own thoughts. My only comment is that I would not be too concerned about slackness in leeward shrouds in wind above 25 knots as I think this would be normal (what do others think?) You mention 30 knots with no slackness, so you may be able to slacken off a bit and this may give a more rigid forestay.

Charles     
'MERIDIAN LADY'

320 Nr 536 2010

Medway
Back to Top
CharlesP View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral


Joined: 23 September 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1208
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CharlesP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2011 at 16:24
Shaukaas - your question about straightness and using the haliard made me think that I should describe other stages in tuning because, yes, you do use a haliard at different stages as well as eye sighting. So here goes.

My post before my last one described the second stage of tuning, assuming you knew the cap shroud tension you wanted. Stage 1 is for getting the mast vertical and central, while Stage 3 is for on the water.

Stage 1- Lubricate turnbuckles; loosen shroud turnbuckles so shrouds are slightly loose; then check whether masthead is central - to do this, use main haliard to measure down to port and starboard chainplates, then tighten and loosen cap shrouds turnbuckles by hand bit by bit and keep checking with the haliard until mast head is central; at this stage each cap shroud should be HAND tight.
Now put a little tension into each cap shroud by turning the turnbuckles on each cap shroud a few turns and each with the same number of turns, for which you should need to use pliers etc; then check the mast by sighting up the sail track - if it bends to one side, tighten the lower and intermediate shrouds to straighten the mast, but do not overtighten othewise you will cause the mast to bend fore and aft and at this stage, you are still trying to keep a straight mast in all directions. You check for fore and aft bend by standing on port or stbd side and as long as the mast has no more than a slight bend at this stage, that will be ok.

Now move to stage 2 which I described in my previous post. However, I suggest you try a maximum tension in your cap shrouds of 10%, then sight up sail track to check sideways bend and adjust by tightening lower shrouds mainly and intermediate shrouds. Then apply backstay to your normal full on position and retighten cap shrouds to 10% and adjust any sideways mast bend with lowers and intermediates as before. With a tension gauge you could also verify that pt and stbd shrouds of each set have the same tension (pt cap = stbd cap; pt lower = stbd lower; pt inter = stbd inter).

PLEASE NOTE that when my 320 was delivered, none of the shrouds, which had been tuned by a professional rigger, exceeded 10% of breaking strain (eg 5mm = 150kg, 6mm = 305kg, 7mm = 125kg).

Now the rig should be sufficiently stable for Stage 3 which is done on the water initially in F3 to F4 close hauled with your usual backstay tension for these conditions. Sight up the mast to first check whether the middle of the mast sags to leeward or the top of the mast bends; correct this by tightening appropriate shrouds; you normally do this by turning the turnbuckle of each set of shrouds by the same amount a little by little. Now go out in a F4 to F5 and do the same checks and adjustments.

At the end of each stage remember to insert the split pins into the rigging screws to hold the adjustment until you do the next stage.

If you have a gauge, make a note of final tensions so that you can in future quickly tighten to final tension after going through Stage 1.

Finally, ease rigging tension for a boat which is out of the water, by a few turns to reduce hull stress.

One thing which I have not mentioned above is that the mast or sail manufacturer should have a dimension for the arc of the mast, which some refer to as prebend, and which can be measured by stretching the main haliard down to the gooseneck. This needs to be ascertained from the sail manufacturer for each mast manufacturer. The shrouds/backstay adjustments introduce prebend which needs to be within tolerance to get the best from your luff cut of mainsail.

Charles
'MERIDIAN LADY'

320 Nr 536 2010

Medway
Back to Top
shaukaas View Drop Down
Commadore
Commadore


Joined: 04 August 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaukaas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2011 at 21:03
Phuh!

This is what I really needed - the complete recipe! Big%20smile

Thanks a lot for your efforts putting this down with words. I do understand that there are probably more details into it - but for the basics this is absolutely great! (And hopefully it provide basis for further discussion on this topic... Embarrassed)
S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171

LG3600 - NOR13510


Back to Top
Windsurfer View Drop Down
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 07 April 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 614
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2011 at 18:50

Thanks for the tips Charles...this is pretty much the same way I did it while tunning my rig...

I forgot to mention one thing that could also help...there is a pretty easy way you can verify if the gauge readings are correct or you can use this as a quasi-accurate method to tension wires without gauges...you start with hand tightening the turnbuckles...then you attach a 2 meter tape on each wire...you have to make sure the lenghts are exactly the same...then you start tightening the shrouds according to the above mentioned schedule while measuring the difference in lengths...each 1 mm of difference in lengh corresponds to 5% of the wire breaking force (irrespective diameter, but is only good for 1X19 wires) ...I've got my cap shrouds about 3mm streched (3,2 maybe) which is pretty much the same as what the tension gauge reads (15%)...this is what I've read in Selden mast tunning guide (you can download it from the site) and tested it using the gauges...
Good luck...
Hanse 320 #079
White hull, tiller, short keel and rudder, standard North sails, Sparcraft rig
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.

Links : www.hanseyachts.co.uk www.hanseyachts.com www.fjordboats.co.uk www.dehler.co.uk www.varianta.co.uk