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How high can you point

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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How high can you point
    Posted: 08 October 2013 at 18:23
hi,
 
how high can you point in your 385 at say 12 knotts true wind speed.
 
I want to know what i should be aiming at when i'm racing
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 18:26
standard main and self tacking jib from the factory?
Steve

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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 18:28
FCL main and 105 racing genoa
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote echoofwight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2013 at 16:09
Hi, this question is not easy to answer in a simple way, you need to aim for a speed and a pointing angle. My Hanse (341) will point higher than it is efficient to do so. Yours will be the same I would think. By this I mean you will gain a couple of degrees but loose boat speed. I sailed a 385 with factory sails for about 900 miles. I would think about 7 knots at 30 degrees apparent in 12 knots of wind would be reasonable in most conditions, dependant on sea state. You may need to reef at that wind speed as it will give about 19 knots apparent wind. You may be able to point higher at the expense of speed and sail faster at the expense of the pointing angle. Others may be able to sail faster and higher. Depends on your own sailing ability as well!!
Steve. Hanse 341 Echo of Wight, . Deep draft and rudder, white hull, Single aft cabin. Raymarine instruments. Raymarine radar. Garmin AIS. Wheel Steering,   Portsmouth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fendant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2013 at 16:33

Which VMG do you achieve would be the better question ?

Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2013 at 19:31
Originally posted by Fendant Fendant wrote:

Which VMG do you achieve would be the better question ?

 
Agreed. One wants to maximize VMG not boat speed....
In 12 knots with a 105% you should be able to steer to 43-45 TWA for best VMG. (maybe slightly higher. VPP programs suggest 41-42)
 
When I'm racing, I set the the top display on the mast to VMG the middle to AWA and the bottom to boat speed. The 2 I'm constantly looking at are VMG and AWA.... 
Steve

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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 03:25
Thanks all, looks like I am not yet quite as high as I should be so I'll try a few tweaks and try harder

Mark
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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Swanji View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swanji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 10:51
Hi Mark

I definitely concur with all that has been said above.

I would add though that in my experience, VMG per the AP24 seems to improve the higher you point which I know is wrong.

I recall Panos explaining it in a post way back where he said that the tactician should decide on the best pointing angle AWA based on the boats polars and the wind speed and then stick to that. Apparently the Simrad VMG doesn't adjust and calculate a moving average. It is useful though to ensure that your VMG isnt falling so perhaps better as a relative measure rather than absolute.

Panos is your man though.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote echoofwight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 16:17
Yes, VMG is the correct technical term, so the question is, what is the best VMG that should be achievable in 12 knots of wind on a flat sea, I would suggest 5 knots as a reasonable starting point for a 385, Meaning you should be able to sail to a point 5 miles directly upwind in one hour. Minus the time you lose by tacking. This is also shown on the polar diagram for a 370, which I would think is similar.
Steve. Hanse 341 Echo of Wight, . Deep draft and rudder, white hull, Single aft cabin. Raymarine instruments. Raymarine radar. Garmin AIS. Wheel Steering,   Portsmouth.
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panos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 18:08
Hi,
Thanks for the kind remarks.

IMHO the VMG is useful in a sailing class and in a forum discussion but useless to drive and trim a boat. Here is why: let's suppose that you sail your best course upwind and start to look to the VMG display. For a trial you pull the rudder to point higher (always the helmsman do this). Since the boat has considerable inertia she will keep her speed while also pointing higher, so temporarily the VMG will increase and the helmsman will get the wrong message that he should point higher. CONCLUSION: a helmsman should never look to the VMG.
Now let's take the tactician: I always prefer speed over pointing. Only after the target speed is reached we maximize the pointing by trimming the sails. I don't find the VMG instrument usefull in this procedure. Of course after the race, during a review of the trim and sailselection the VMG is the only way to judge, but not during the race.

Edited by panos - 10 October 2013 at 18:10
Panos

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