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How high can you point

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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 18:21
Originally posted by panos panos wrote:

Hi,
Thanks for the kind remarks.

IMHO the VMG is useful in a sailing class and in a forum discussion but useless to drive and trim a boat. Here is why: let's suppose that you sail your best course upwind and start to look to the VMG display. For a trial you pull the rudder to point higher (always the helmsman do this). Since the boat has considerable inertia she will keep her speed while also pointing higher, so temporarily the VMG will increase and the helmsman will get the wrong message that he should point higher. CONCLUSION: a helmsman should never look to the VMG.
 
Totally agree with the pitfalls you detail Panos. However, if the helmsman knows of this phenomenon he can take it into account and not stall the boat out by pointing too high and then have to head down to build speed again. This process would be very slow. A rookie with a new boat would have problems but after sailing the same boat for some time you begin to understand the characteristics and filter what's on the display....
Steve

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panos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 18:37
Ok. You can keep the VMG without letting it to mislead you and you are experienced and you know your boat. How does the VMG help you to drive and trim during the race? I think you don't need it except possibly to judge if the sail change or the reef helped after all or not.
Instead of the VMG I would prefer an instrument to show the wind shifts and the wind trend. This together with the boat speed and the true wind data I consider the most useful.
But of course every boat and every crew is different and this is the beauty of it.
Panos

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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2013 at 20:07
Originally posted by panos panos wrote:

I would prefer an instrument to show the wind shifts and the wind trend. This together with the boat speed and the true wind data I consider the most useful.
 
YES PLEASE!!!! :)
 
I've been looking at the B and G Zeus Touch as it provides some sailing specific navigation features that would be great. However, if you upgrade even further to the Zeus (not Touch), then it looks like you get time line data which can show the wind shifts, etc.....   this would be great! pretty pricey though....
 
 
 
 
Steve

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Perttu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Perttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2013 at 22:03
Excellent discussion on how high you can point, I would agree with most. However I would like to bring another additional angle to this since the environment tends to be different always when out there.

I think when racing for fun or more seriously it is extremely useful to quickly develop understanding how the competition performs in different circumstances. Then you will know what you should be doing and and how you are actually performing. This is especially useful when you have comparable boats & crews - comparing to those will always give you very honest and objective feedback on your own performance.

- Perttu

Check my sailing videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/l11483?feature=results_main
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Mark&Catherine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark&Catherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 03:41
We sailed in the 'round the I world' short handed race yesterday . True wind 7 - 9 knots. We were fast in flat water close hauled. Main slightly cracked off, 105 trimmed to maintain slot by adjusting sheet and backstay.

However when we came out of the lee of the island into lumpy sea we went down the fleet. I know slamming is slow but the swell wasn't really slamming height, but unless I pointed as low as 40 apparent we were just slow. Any ideas?

Btw racing with 2 in 33 degrees is b??dy hard work.
385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine
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panos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 08:39
Most probably you are underpowered, especially the front sail, to handle wind speeds under 10-12 knots.
Of course it also depends on which was the average fleet boat. I imagine them racing with interchangeable front sails, while you have to live with a "fit all conditions" roller 105 jib. Such a sail is simply too heavy to handle low wind speeds. You need a light and powerful front sail to handle the chop. Just my two cents.

Edited by panos - 12 October 2013 at 08:40
Panos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter-Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 11:02
Wind under 10 kn is definatly a problem on many new Hanses.

The selftacker is not very big (ok lttle bigger than on previous models..). My 370 is a pretty fast boat from 10knts (plus) on with the selftacker. Following my autopilot, we can sail a apparent wind angle of 28 degrees with a very good vmg.

In less wind and a little choppy wave the speed will drop fast with the selftacker.

Here (Wind less than 10kts) all older Hases have a big advantage. We can use big overlapping genoas!
My big genoa (about 140%) is used from 4-14 knts upwind. I love to sail also in these conditions, as the genoa is like a boost!

In winds of 6 knts plus the best angle with the genoa is nearly the same as the selftacker.
In winds less than 6-7knts we have to sail a lower course to get speed into the boat. But only 30-32 degrees instead of 28. If the speed is up you can steer back to the smallest angle and than again drop back again. It is always a game between speed and angle.

BTW i allways steer following the telltales. The cheapest and best instrument on board. I am coming from small boats like Laserclass racing, there you do not have any instrument except the tell tales! You see the right windangle in the tell tales tell you what to do, and you feel the strength of the wind on your nose and you feel the speed and the waves in your ass!

Following this:
A good sailor needs only: tell tales; a good nose and a nice ass!


In wind under 3-4 knts it gets difficult to be faster than drifting. Maybe my nose is to old for such low winds and my ......upps

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter-Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 11:20
BTW:
Just a comparison 385/370

winds from 10 kts plus:
Hanse 385 with selftacke upwind 74 sqm
Hanse 370 with selftacker upwind 71,1 sgm
Here the 385 has a little advantage in sailarea upwind but the 385 has also about 400 kg more weight following the papers... (370 7200kg; 385 7600 kg)

winds less than 10 kts
Hanse 385 with 105% genoa upwind 77,5 sqm
Hanse 370 with 140% genoa upwind 87,4 sam
Here you see, that the 370 has 10 sqm more sailarea than the 385. This is a big advantage for speed. OK in races you get penalized for this, but speed is not only needed in races!


Edited by Peter-Blake - 12 October 2013 at 11:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Perttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 18:33
Originally posted by Mark&Catherine Mark&Catherine wrote:


However when we came out of the lee of the island into lumpy sea we went down the fleet. I know slamming is slow but the swell wasn't really slamming height, but unless I pointed as low as 40 apparent we were just slow. Any ideas?


I dont know who you were racing with but I would say since Hanse is more cruiser than racer choppy seas mean that you will not be able to follow Dehlers, X-yachts, J-boats, Arconas, First, Salonas etc in terms of boat speed. When flat atleast 355 is surpricingly fast but penalty comes immediately when sea becomes choppy.

Nothing wrong with that, you have more room inside, fantastic value for the money and still very well performing yacht. But racing against true performance cruisers is another thing...

- Perttu
Check my sailing videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/l11483?feature=results_main
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alettaenmarcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2013 at 19:45
The only instrument on a dingy is your compass Peter Blake because on the compass you see your tacking angle.
Beside that you are right your tell tales are undoubtly unmissable.
Greetings Marcel
Kids Dingys 72-79 ,Several Windsurfboards 79-86 OK dingy competitions 86-92 , Trotter Pandora Race 92-98, Friendship 28 Sport 98-05, Hanse 370 06-......
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