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Jeffa Autopilot Failure

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jdderijke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jdderijke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 22:16
Hi Kipwrite.

The DD1 has a drive axle with a big gear on the bottom and an arm on the top. Since this axle only turns about 15 degrees both sides (max rudder limit), only a small portion of the gear is ever used.

When replacing the central planetary axle (which drives this big gear of the drive axle) or just as a precaution, i think it is wise to rotate the drive axle in order to use the untouched part of the gearwheel.

The way to do this: Take off the arm, remove the 2 connections on the arm(one for the rudder indicator and one for the push/pull rod) and remount them on the OTHER side of the arm. Now turn the arm upside down and reassemble and ...... bingo ..... the drive axle will have rotated 180 degrees. I think by doing this regularly one could limit wear of the gearwheels.

Yes my pushrod was also mounted to the wrong position on the quadrant, but i left it that way, i dont think it will solve the problem with waves coming from behind.....the forces are simply way to big for 2 or 3 teeth to withstand them....

About your remark for a replacement drive....what do you think about the T2 drive unit?
See link

JD, SY Privateer
JD
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Samtutuki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Samtutuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2018 at 00:52
Good and interesting report. Thank you.

My view is that the DD1 drive is too small for a 505.

According to this Jefa website:

https://www.jefa.com/steering/steering.htm

boats with an LOA of 40 to 55 feet should use a DD2.  Of course there may not be enough space to hold a DD2 but the failure you describe is clearly an overload which should be expected using a DD1 on a 505.  

My little 315 uses exactly the same drive.

Why do Hanse persist in undersizing gear be it anchor windlass or autopilot drive? 

I think we can all work out the answer$?

Perhaps Hanse could offer heavier gear as an option for this intending to do some serious bluewater sailing.
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KiaOraSailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiaOraSailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2018 at 11:43
Wow, first of all congrats and thanks to jdderijke: once you've figured out it seems to be that easy! Smile
I would like to share two things with you all:
1) root cause of failure: I'm now absolutely sure what had happened on our drive unit last year and what they did for repair: they replaced the broken wheel. And that will happen again unless I will also rotate the configuration as described. However, what should constructors basically change in the design here? Most of the job will ALWAYS happen on those poor 4 teeth! And there is no "idle" function that might allow the unit by itself to rotate the shaft periodically. But such a feature would - ideally - only extend the time to failure, but not prevent the failure.
In my opinion, the only effective measure is NOT TO USE the AP for longer time with big waves from the back. Since I believe that such operating mode is just out-of-design-spec.
2) About the DD2 option and the "undersized gear" statements quoted recently: Jefa sincerely claimed that the DD1 is not undersized for the 505 (although they did not comment on special wave conditions). And they also explained to me, that the DD2 is not applicable here since (a) too big and (b) not watertight (!).

Maybe, Hanse should just tell the owners frankly that this AP is not designed for bluewater application with days of surfing big waves from the back. It should be considered as temporary tool for steering - especially when running on engine. Long-distance legs should be still a matter of wind vane systems - or perhaps very robust hydraulic AP Systems.

BTW: the most efficient test crews for durability of boating gear are the charter sailors. Any design flaws will be unveiled after max. 3 charter seasons.Wink
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Samtutuki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Samtutuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2018 at 21:09
Hi KiaOraSailor,

I also spoke with Jefa when looking at a second hand 505 and the person I spoke with said something similar.  So my followup question to them is if the DD2 is not waterproof and too big why manufacture and sell it?

The torque figures also speak volume sunny view 

DD1 rated torque 150 kgm
DD2 rated torque 375 kgm


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kipwrite View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipwrite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2018 at 22:15
Jdderjke-
Thanks for the clairificafion.
I liked the B&G hydraulic drive you linked to - but it will not fit in the space available on my 505 #123.
Jeffa absolutely maintains that the DD1 is appropriately sized for our boats. In my failure, they blamed the issue on the mounting in the wrong tiller hole, so I’ve switched mine. I would recommend following their advise. It’s an easy fix and will lessen the chance of another failure.
If anyone finds a hydraulic unit that fits please let us all know. Otherwise I believe a Hydrovane is the best solution.

Edited by kipwrite - 31 December 2018 at 05:05
Kipwrite
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KiaOraSailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiaOraSailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2018 at 11:15
Hi Samtutuki,

I guess the answer to your question is simply: while the yachts were growing bigger and bigger they kept using the same drive unit - and because of the location underneath a simple cockpit cover it had to be waterproof. (maybe this requirement is also a result from the current designs with open sterns? Older yachts such as Sun Oddysseys from before 2009 have the AP drive unit in a sheltered compartment where there is no need for being waterproof). The DD2 looks like coming from another application with different spec for bigger yachts.
What I'm curious about now is: Hanse just lauchned the "next" 505 which is the 508 and it will be interesting to see what kind of gear (AP, BT, windlass) they might have upgraded due to our negative experiences? 
There is one thing I already know for sure: The new swimming ladder on the platform looks much better and adequate now!Smile

Cheers and Happy New Year to all
Walter
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Alesea View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alesea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2018 at 14:23
Jdderjke - thanks for the post and valuable information. We’re checking our teeth.
We have just crossed the Atlantic with the ARC and had a hydrovane fitted to ease the burden on the autohelm. After two days of part use with quite steep following seas with a cross swell (conditions we now read not recommended for the AP) the bolts attaching the bottom bracket sheared off. We know of a few others who experienced the same problem. Our impression was the hydrovane struggled to correct when what is a very wide transom gets picked up and thrown around. At the time, the boat was well balanced, sailing with a poled out headsail and no. 1 reef in in 20knots of breeze. Admittedly we are new users and may need to adjust the system, but we can’t really see a solution for the back of the boat being swung around. Funnily enough (or should I say thankfully) we went back to the AP and it was fine.
Alesea Hanse 505 NZL9464
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tobo2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tobo2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2019 at 08:41
As Hanse is boosting the new 508 as a "true bluewater yacht" this AP drive unit should stand harder conditions than only island hopping cruises. I'm sure someone with a 508 can find out (there are about 25 built so far). The same undersizing tendency you can meet with the windlass. A 1000W unit is just not enough for a 15 t yacht! This would be the first thing I would exchange to a 1500-1700 W unit. Why not offering that as an option!
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fulanito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fulanito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 11:42
For those interested in replacing the Jeffa DD1 there is an alternative with electro-hydraulic drive that can be fitted just... in the AP cavity.  it has a bypass to regain steering control when on standy by or failure. Have a look if that interest you. 


Cheers

GG
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kipwrite View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipwrite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2019 at 13:42
If you could post a photo of this unit installed I’d be most grateful.
Kipwrite
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