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Junker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 12:40
HI
it is always a question about the pointing and the speed, and where you gain most. (when going upwind)This is what the VMG tells you. When going upwind toward a mark in the wind eye the highest VMG will give you the the fastesr way to the mark (in my opinionErmm)
This means that you can forget about the boat speed, and consentrate on the VMG. ( except for calculating the current etc...)
This is for a ideal situation with a stable wind and no wind shifts.
 
Is there something I have missed her? Or does everyone agree?
 
 
Regds
Rune
 
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1REO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1REO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 12:53
I have only been sailing for a year and a half, so my question is: How do you determine the vmg, is this done by any instrument? If so how well does it work if you got a lot of wind shifts, bot direction and speed?
Brg
REO
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Junker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 13:33
Hi
the VMG dispalys speed into the wind, or speed running with the wind.
It is calcultaed in different ways, but it is basically boat speed and the wind direction. The wind speed has no influence ( ecxept that the speed will drop off course) A wind shift will not affect this calculation, but a wind shift will change the target relative to the windShocked
Meaning that the VMG will be the same, but you are moving better or Worse towards the target ( better if you are lucky!)
 
This is normally done by all instruments. You will find the same on your GPS, but in this case the VMG is speed against the waypoint. If you put a waypoint on you target you can use this, but then calculated only by SOG and the waypoint.

Sailing is complicated!!Tongue

regds
Rune
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Scorpio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 14:36
It's a question of knowing what information to look at from that available and having it displayed.  On the TackTick instrument we have on Scorpio when going up wind we have the following information available - we just need more instrumesnts to display it all!:
Boat Speed
Depth
AWA
Apparent Wind Speed
True Wind Speed
VMG (to Wind)
VMG (to Waypoint)
Tack Heading (what our course would be on the opposite Tack)
Bearing to Waypoint (a.k.a the mark)
Distance to Waypoint
Wind Shift (degrees lifted or headed compared to average wind direction in last nn minutes)
Graph showing Wind Speed history (over a configurable period from 2 minutes to 24 hours)
Graph showing Wind Direction history (over a configurable period)
and, last but not least, tell tales on the sails. 
 
On top of this when I finally get a laptop and the associated software sorted out, we'll also have time/distance to Lay Line and a Percentage performance versus the Polars.
 
Sailing is indeed a complicated sport Big%20smile
 
Ed


Edited by Scorpio - 09 October 2007 at 14:36
Ed Essery
Scorpio GBR 9824T
Hanse 342#465 - Solent Based
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Junker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 14:52
Hi
the problem with all this information ( even if you have 10 displays) is to absorbe the info, and use it. Smile
In the same time you have to steer the boat,trim the sails, change sails,  look for competitors, weather changes, tachtical steering, marks, instruct crews etc...... Wink
 
regds
RUne
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Scorpio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2007 at 15:52
Like the man said Sailing is a complicated sport!!
 
This especially the case if you race two-handed which is what we do.
 
The helmsman focusses on Boat Speed, AWA, VMG and the tell tales as primary data points.
 
The rest of the stuff on your list is the responsibility of the other crew member.
 
Ed


Edited by Scorpio - 09 October 2007 at 15:53
Ed Essery
Scorpio GBR 9824T
Hanse 342#465 - Solent Based
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Johan Hackman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johan Hackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2007 at 18:10
Originally posted by 1REO 1REO wrote:

I have only been sailing for a year and a half, so my question is: How do you determine the vmg, is this done by any instrument? If so how well does it work if you got a lot of wind shifts, bot direction and speed?


It felt like a revelation when I found out how to use VMG, velocity made good, on my IS15 instruments. For the sake of those who haven't yet discovered this feature, let me elaborate what's already been said above.

The VMG describes the velocity of the boat towards the wind's eye in knots. It should not be confused with the VMG on a GPS which tells you how fast the boat is moving towards a waypoint, i.e. a fixed place on Earth.

The VMG is useful to find the best course to steer if you want to sail against the wind, i.e. tacking, or going with the wind, i.e. running. On all other courses it's the log that tells you when your boat is performing best. If you look at a polar diagram you will find that it looks like an apple. The boat is going slower if you are trying to steer to the wind (towards 0 degrees) or down the wind (towards 180 degrees). You want to find the balance between going directly to your target and slower, or going a longer way but faster.

Since I am from Sweden I have to sail against the wind no matter in what direction I am headed, so the below examples will be about performing when tacking.

The first picture shows the wind instrument and the combi instrument both displaying VMG. You can see that the boat's speed towards the wind's eye is 4,5 knots when I am steering 23 degrees into the wind at a boat speed of 5,3 knots. During the circumstances I would probably make 6,2 knots of boat speed if I steered 35 degrees, but the VMG would drop to 3,5 knots. The trick is to find a nice balance between the two figures. I think other makes of instruments have a different calculation of VMG giving you a "factor" you want to keep as high as possible, but on my Simrad system its the two numbers in knots I have to compare.



The second picture shows when I have set only the wind instrument to show VMG, while the combi instrument is showing other crucial data, like depth. The arrow pointing down on the digital display is indicating that the digital display is showing the velocity toward's the wind's eye in knots and the arrow pointing to right is indicating that the wind angle displayed on the analogue display is Apparent Wind.



Keep in mind that, as opposed to True Wind Angle, you can make the Apparant Wind Angle smaller, i.e. you point higher, by doing one of two things: steer closer to the wind or go faster. The challenging thing is to do both and that's what's been intriguing sailors since the beginnig of time. The True Wind Speed should be independent of what course you steer, while the angle will obvious change accordingingly to the course.

Also keep in mind that the True Wind Angle and Speed is calculated from the wind data your system provides and the boat's speed. It will be hopelessly wrong if you don't calibrate you log several times during the season.

I hope this helps.

Johan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alain & Anne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2007 at 18:31
And if you get tired... the AP16 pilot (and the otherSimrad of course!!) is doing the job for you.... and sometimes better than you.
UHAMBO 430e#004
White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising
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Our blog: www.uhambo.fr

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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2007 at 17:51

1REO

Regarding a 108%. I currently use this sail for racing on my 400e. It is an excellent size for winds 10 knots and above. Not bad down to about 8. Should use an overlapping foresail really for anything below 8. (I'm referring to racing of course) However, if you're considering something this size you will be interested to know that iIt is too big to use the self tacker track and it needs to sheet to a point forward of the genoa track. On the 400, I put a block in just behind the shrouds and the sheet runs in between the shrouds.

Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1REO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2007 at 15:19
Hi

A lot of good answers posted here, thanks.

Johan, always interesting to read your posts, especially with all the pictures. Sadly on my boat The IS12 range is installed, and they seem to be a somewhat simpler design. Can not find anything in the instruction manual regarding VMG. I do have installed also the AP16 and CP31, can these instrument display VMG? Have been sailing 15 out of the 16 races in the series this year, with mixed results, but feel I have learnt a lot from it. Last race was a double handed in wich I finished in 5th place out of 14, in front of amongst others a Grand Soleil 43, Elan 340 and 37 and B38 match.

Steve, do you have any pictures of the arrangement you have set up for the 108%. How do you cange the sheeting angle? It is good to hear that it works good down to 8-10 knots because the 150% is to big over 10 knots, and thus leaving a gap up to the selftacker. Have a deck plan of what seems to be a 341 race edition where they have placed genoa tracks on the coach roof just behind the selftacking track. Am thinking about using this solution on my boat.
Brg
REO
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