Print Page | Close Window

H418 motor starter burned

Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints and Tips
Forum Name: 415
Forum Description: 415 Hints, Tips and News
URL: http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11554
Printed Date: 20 February 2020 at 14:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: H418 motor starter burned
Posted By: TouchOfGrey
Subject: H418 motor starter burned
Date Posted: 27 August 2019 at 20:58
hi all,

We received our H418 in April 2018, hull #26. 
Engine type is Yanmar 3JH5E.

Recently we started our trip across the North Sea from the Netherlands to the UK. After a couple of hours sailing against the wind we started the engine to maintain a decent speed. After an hour of motorsailing we increased rev’s to keep up with some friends sailing with us. Then a smell of burning and it appeared our motor starter had burned.

I don’t know if the starter had continued ‘starting’ and thus failed, or whether the starter failed to disengage mechanically after starting and then got burned up. I suspect the second, but can’t be sure.

Anyone else with recent Yanmar motor starter problems?

I am aware of a thread in H575 that included similar problems on two H418 boats, both delivered in spring 2018 just like ours:
  https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11293&KW=Motor+starter&title=quality-problems-with-the-interior" rel="nofollow - https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11293&KW=Motor+starter&title=quality-problems-with-the-interior




Replies:
Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 27 August 2019 at 22:16
Hi Touch of Grey,
If you go to an April thread titled 575 Quality issues, you will see reports of several owners talking about similar issues with 418 Starter Motor burnouts.  Our 418/81 was commissioned in Sydney in April this year and our dealer installed a small stainless frame around the engine control buttons in the cockpit as they had concerns that the Start button could easily be leant on accidentally when under way.  This would then cause the starter motor to run on and not disengage, leading to a burnout.

Is it possible that in the process of increasing revs, someone has leant against the control pad with their leg for some time and not noticed? 

We certainly haven't had a problem with ours but don't know if the issues are related to the above scenario or not.

Good luck.

Love our 418.
Bruce J 



-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 27 August 2019 at 22:19
I just realised you were already on that thread.  Your message wasn't fully displayed on my iPad when I typed my previous reply.
Cheers.


-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 13:10
Bruce - Would it be possible to get a picture of the cage covering the starter control as sounds a very good idea?

Henk, - As you have seen we had a similar issue on the first weekend of our 418 (#44 June18), control panel and starter motor replaced and no problems since with extra 150 engine hours now covered, all working well.

Hope you got to UK ok!

Jon






Posted By: TouchOfGrey
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 17:12
Hi Bruce,

thanks for your post.

I'm sure the start button was not pressed, certainly not for a prolonged period, causing the burning up. It is possible the button was pressed shortly while the motor was running already and it failed to disengage afterwards. I'm afraid we'll never know.

Yanmar Netherlands puts the full blame on the thick cables used by Hanse. The thick -cable would slip down and make contact with the pulse-contact on the relais. I don't buy this given the absence of any spark damage. Plus all cables were solid in the right place when the mechanic started removing the starter.

regards,
Henk







Posted By: TouchOfGrey
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 17:14
Hi Jon,

thanks for your reply. Yes we got to the UK safe and sound, just 2 days later than hoped.

Had a great time on the East coast and visiting London. The 418 behaved very well and in our group of 8 boats we were along the fastest, especially with the Furlstrom sail.

regards,
Henk


Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 20:56
Hi Jon,
We won't be on the boat until late next week so I’ll try to remember to take a photo and post it then.
Cheers
Bruce


-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 21:09
Bruce - Many thanks!

Henk - Pleased you made it safely to UKSmile. Totally agree about being a fast sail, we really enjoy our 418.

Cheers,
Jon


Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 21:38
Hi Jon,
Just realised I had a photo, although it’s a bit grainy when resized. If you zoom in on the control panel you will see the neat 2 bar cage over the buttons.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Bruce


-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 21:48
Bruce - Very smart, nice bit of design.
Can see how in a wave could save a knee knocking the panel and a lot of future expense!
Many thanks.
Jon


Posted By: Breathe
Date Posted: 29 August 2019 at 10:49
Hi Jon,

Our 418, #33 had wear on the wiring loom between engine and control panel.

In our case the wear resulted in a short between the cable providing power to the control panel, and the cable controlling the air heater control solenoid. This meant the air heater stayed on, as long as the control panel had power. Sufficient heat was generated to ignite the plastic air intake box. Damage was at a level where a new engine was required. Without going into the details, it was a bad experience, but all damage has been fixed now.

It is possible to see a situation where the short could be between power supply and starter solenoid. I suggest that you, and other 418 owners, check the full length of the control cable loom. Mine was not in conduit. The loom for the new engine is in conduit!

Note that at least one boat in NZ has also had starter issues, hopefully they will provide comments soon.

Regards
Gordon


Posted By: Breathe
Date Posted: 29 August 2019 at 10:52
Sorry,

Should have addressed the above to Jon and Henk.

Gordon


Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 29 August 2019 at 14:11
Further to our discussions Gordon, my 50 hour service included disconnection of the  power supply to the air heater solenoid.  It has been secured in place such that, should we ever feel the need, it can be reconnected.
There has been no modification instruction issued by Hanse or Yanmar to Agents since your “event” so they still consider it a “one off”.  Hopefully they are right.  The “option” of re-routing the loom via conduit was not on the table for discussion.
All seems good after SIBS.
Enjoy the Coral Coast.
Cheers


-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 30 August 2019 at 09:06
Gordon. 

Thanks for the advice, will definately check!

Also sorry to hear of your incident, sounds like you have been very unlucky. Having lifted the floorboards on our 418 I was impressed how the cables/pipes were laid through conduit, unlike our previous boat, (not a Hanse) but must admit did not check control panel!

Hope you now have smooth sailing.

Jon


Posted By: Breathe
Date Posted: 30 August 2019 at 10:11
Jon,

The area of concern on our boat was on the port side of the engine, where the loom rubbed on either the engine or the sail drive. There are other cables above the control loom.

The control loom runs from here to the stern under the bunk and adjacent to the exhaust pipe. This is probably the easiest place to have a look.

Gordon


Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 30 August 2019 at 22:52
Gordon. 

Many thanks, very helpful. Did a quick check and all looks ok, wrapped tightly in tape and no damage but will do a detailed inspection. Appreciated the detailed feedback.

Good sailing.

Jon


Posted By: Breathe
Date Posted: 31 August 2019 at 10:38
Jon,

Ours was wrapped in tape, that did not provide adequate protection when the loom rubbed on something near the engine, probably a bolt. See photos below. My new loom has been installed in split conduit.

This thread has made me spend to much time remembering one of life’s really bad experiences.....

On the other hand, we had a great sail today, a nice long reach in 15 knots of tropical wind, Breathe doing what she was purchased to do. We are cruising the east coast of Australia, currently in the Whitsunday Islands, arguably Australia’s premier cruising location. We are here until the end of September,  then time to head home.

Gordon




Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 31 August 2019 at 21:40
Gordon.

You have a stunning location, we visited a couple of years ago and loved the area!  Lots of fond Oz memories!

As a contrast this weekend in Yarmouth a small pretty harbour off Isle of Wight but UK weather blowing and a very cold wind!!

Thanks for pics and advice, will get our control cables wrapped in a spiral conduit as can see the benefit.

G'day and enjoy those beautiful  islandsTongue

Jon.



Posted By: S&J
Date Posted: 31 August 2019 at 23:03
Hmm.  As a part time Aussie I'm envious of Breath being in tropical waters.  Many happy memories cruising the Whitsundays on a charter yacht, long before I owned my own boat.
We got hammered today with 30+ over the decks and somewhat inexperienced crew so didn't even get as far as Yarmouth, which was our intended destination.  However just spent a great evening exchanging sailing stories in one of the restaurants in Cowes.
Wishing you all fair winds and safe passages.


-------------
H385 #351 Ningaloo UK south coast; Scotland 2020?


Posted By: TouchOfGrey
Date Posted: 02 September 2019 at 08:07
hi guys,

Triggered by the story of Bruce I'd asked Windcraft what exactly they install to protect the motor panel buttons. Richard kindly send the following response: "We do indeed fit a stainless steel protection bar to the Yanmar panel. These are manufactured here for each boat. I have attached a photograph of one we have installed for your reference."

Happy sailing,

Henk 


Posted By: P&J
Date Posted: 03 September 2019 at 12:16
Hi Bruce,
Do you know where your dealer sourced the stainless steel frame as I would like to purchase one for our 418.
I live in Sydney
Best regards
Peter


Posted By: Muriel
Date Posted: 03 September 2019 at 12:27
Hi Peter,
No I don't.  Windcraft just did it as part of the Commissioning process back in April this year and really only talked about it at handover.  I think they designed and made it themselves, but can't be sure.  It was about the same time the reports had come through of multiple burnouts of starter motors and they were just taking precautions to remove all risks of someone accidentally leaning on the button, which they felt was a bit exposed.

If you email Windcraft Service I'm sure they can clarify for you.

Where about in Sydney are you?
Cheers
Bruce J


-------------
If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Muriel 418 #081


Posted By: Antsy
Date Posted: 30 October 2019 at 05:52
My starter has just failed / Burnt out.  I thought this only happened to other people.  Haven't had a problem until last weekend.  They are going to fit a controls guard but I don't think it is caused by that


Posted By: Goodcompany
Date Posted: 02 November 2019 at 00:40
Hi touch of grey. 
We had the same experience with our 418. Our  startmotor has been replaced twice. First time it didn't start at all, without any signs of burnings whatsoever. It just went broke. Second time we were just a few minutes on our way when we noticed a burning smell. Turned out that the startmotor died again. Yanmar told us that its probably a cable problem but they have  to investigate. Do you have already new insights?
Edwin


Posted By: TouchOfGrey
Date Posted: 16 November 2019 at 17:35
Hi GoodCompany,

my new motorstarter has kept up good since the replacement. It's not a Hitachi starter (originally used by Hanse) but a more affordable imitation. So far so good. The mechanic doing the replacement could not find spark marks, cable damage or other reasons that could have cause the failure. Last week the local Yanmar service mechanic did the motor service and looked at the starter situation as well. Could not find a definite root cause either.

There are three hypothesis:
1. someone accidentally pressed the 'start' button while the engine was already running, the starter failed to disengage and consequently it burned.
2. The starter failed to disengage after I started the engine and during the 1,5-2 hours running at 2500 rpm it managed to survive, after increasing rev's to 3500 it burned up.
3. The cable/lug moved somewhat cause by waves/swell and touched the next connector, despite we didn't find spark marks.

My follow up actions:
1. we install a protective ss cover over the motor panel buttons to prevent accidentally pressing any button.
2. can't do anything about this. After replacing the starter we opened the motor area when starting the engine to listen for confirmation that the starter disengaged and slowed down to zero rev’s. I can't hear it from the cockpit. Since the event the current starter had no issues and it built enough trust so we lately stopped this verification.
3. Hanse uses very large cables, heavy and difficult to bend in a way it clears the other connector well. Since there are several other, smaller, cables connected to the same connection, the 'outer' lug is over the barrier between the connectors. Thus when that cable/lug rotates, it may make contact with the other connector. To reduce/avoid this risk, I'm contemplating to bring the various smaller cables together in another way and then connect these with only one cable to the motor starter. That way we reduce the number of lugs on one starter connector. 




Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net