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371 wonít point

Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing
Forum Description: Hanse Chat about various races, gear setup, sail choices, rig tuning, etc....
URL: http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12586
Printed Date: 05 October 2022 at 09:15
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 371 wonít point
Posted By: Selene6467
Subject: 371 wonít point
Date Posted: 11 March 2021 at 09:29
Hello from Lake Macquarie Australia!

Are there any 371/370 owners out there who may be able to provide some suggestions as to why I get out pointed by yachts that maybe should not be out pointing me?

I have very little to no mast rake, is this normal? Other than the way I helm the boat is there anything else I should be looking at?

I have ST and about a 130% Genoa, same issue with both sails. All my sails are tri radial less than 5 yrs old.


Whilst Iím asking questions can anyone provide information on the load applied to blocks on ST closehauled, what blocks seem to work for other owners?

Thanks in advance.



Replies:
Posted By: Matt1
Date Posted: 11 March 2021 at 10:15
Is this issue in all wind ranges? or just in light, or heavy, or??
 
If the sails are good the next thing to look at would be rig tension, in particular the forestay tension. Hanse's (at least the current range) do seem to be set up with more rake than most modern boats but I can't see this would be the main reason you aren't pointing
 
What keel do you have?


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Hanse 418 #64 EmBer. Hamble, UK



Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 11 March 2021 at 13:45
My boat is smaller than yours, but the principle should be that same. I started off with the supplied rig with the mast raked back & standard sails. I had a heavy helm & poor upwind performance.
Better sails - Which you say you have & then a much tighter rig made a difference. My uppers are set at just over 25% ( using a loos rig tension gauge) that means properly fitting tools to the screws etc to avoid damage. I increased the backstay to 32:1.
The lowers are set to get the correct pre bend etc to suit my sails & my sailmaker has visited my boat to check this.

Unless you want to experiment with the expense, you are stuck with the mast rake that you have. I changed my forestay 3 times. My mast is now dead upright.
Helm is far lighter producing less drag
However, all this does no good if one does not set the sail trim correctly, twist etc. You can only understand that by sailing against others on lots of short races.
You might also ask yourself how you are performing off the wind. Are you doing well? It could be other factors.

I have to ask my daughter why she needs 5 pairs of shoes for a 3 day sail, when she can only walk 31 feet before falling inCry. Then when we get there she goes shoe shoppingHug
I think you get what i am saying-- keep it light.Thumbs Up



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Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex


Posted By: Selene6467
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 09:59
thanks for reply Matt.

I seem to struggle in all wind ranges, one tact is considerably worse than the other, Iím guessing this is due to weight distribution or rig.

I did have my rig tension checked by a rigger a couple of years ago now, he commented that the stays were pretty tight which I take to mean donít tighten them any more. I havenít compared mast rake to any other similar size Hanse however I was raft up to a Bavaria 36 Cruiser and compared to his my mast was vertical, I might add that this Bavaria is my main mark in our club racing, he continually out points me, unfortunately he has raced on our boat and knows full well he just has to push us up and we hurt real bad.

Our forestay seems to be quite loose, I have recently started to crank on the back stay, this seems to remove the curve in the forestay, I have to say though that my sailmaker didnít say that it should be pulled on as hard as it has the last couple of races.

I draw 2 metres.


Posted By: Selene6467
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 10:07
thanks Samuel,

Like the shoes, I try to keep things pretty simple!

May well have to purchase a Loos Gauge! When you say your uppers are at 25%, thatís 25% of what ?

I will check to see what ratio my backstay is, I seem to be able to get considerable tension but maybe considerable is just not enough.
When do you normally have to get your back stay on hard?

Regards
Brad


Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 10:22
Originally posted by Selene6467 Selene6467 wrote:

thanks Samuel,
May well have to purchase a Loos Gauge! When you say your uppers are at 25%, thatís 25% of what ?

SWL
Edit: I always took it to be SWL but from Matts post the Selden guide states Breaking load
I also note that Seldon say max 20%, but I have noted that North do sometimes state up to 25% & I think I did see them quote 28% somewhere. However, getting above 25% is quite difficult without damaging the screws.


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Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex


Posted By: Matt1
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 10:35
There's a great guide here that you may find helpful.

I really only use the backstay when going upwind in fresh conditions when I will wind it on hard to get some additional bend eg flatter main and increased forestay tension. If I'm sailing upwind under just the headsail (normally in strong conditions) I will also wind it on hard because I think it's ultimately kinder on the rig. From memory I think the Selden manual says something to that effect. The good thing is that even without a loos guage you should be able to see how much forestay sag you have simply by sighting up he luff foil

https://support.seldenmast.com/files/1605537330/595-540-E.pdf" rel="nofollow - 595-540-E.pdf (seldenmast.com)




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Hanse 418 #64 EmBer. Hamble, UK



Posted By: Tranquillity
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 12:40
Hi, Apart from mast rake, lots of backstay and settings talked about above have a look when sailing at twist at top of sails, need to keep tell tales streaming on leach of main with a little twist so not stalling main, a lot of folks stall main by over sheeting in lighter airs. Also look at slot between jib and main to ensure looks right as wind strength increases as likely to need tuning. If you want to really fine tune create a polar chart for your boat so you know when in the grove or off the pace plus can make tuning adjustments and compare good or bad against your polar. Having spent ten years as mainsheet trimmer on a racing yacht trim is really an art but makes such a difference. Good luck!


Posted By: Selene6467
Date Posted: 13 March 2021 at 10:34
so Gentlemen, after reading the Selden document not only will my boat not point, my head will not stop spinning.  
Thanks for assistance thus far👍.


Posted By: Matt1
Date Posted: 13 March 2021 at 11:58
Smile

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Hanse 418 #64 EmBer. Hamble, UK



Posted By: DJgun
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 00:48
LOL
I love the head spinning part.
Trying to find factory rake settings is like trying to find hen's teeth.
My 400 obviously has too much rake, with a standard forestay length, possibly as a result of the mast foot being trimmed before I purchased it. It won't point, and rounds up with a gust of 12-14kn despite rapid mainstream release.
Good luck.


Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 15:23
Just out of interest, How tight do you make the ST halyard?


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Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex


Posted By: DJgun
Date Posted: 23 March 2021 at 11:37
Hello from Sydney.

Do you know how much weather helm you have sailing close hauled in 10-12kn in smooth water? If you have a rudder angle indicator (normally if you have autopilot you will have this information available on chartplotter etc).

You need to have around 3 degrees (or maybe 4) of weather helm in this situation, and that provides "lift" which means you sail higher. Weather helm should not exceed 5 degrees in this situation.   If you can see and hear turbulence from the rudder then you have more than 5 or 6 degrees of rudder.

If you don't have enough weather helm, but all your sails are trimmed about right, then possible solution is to rake the mast bake slightly by adjusting forestay to be slightly longer. 




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DJ Sailor Ordinaire
HIN DE-HANJ0331J708



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