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Standing mast route advice needed

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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Standing mast route advice needed
    Posted: 03 July 2019 at 17:28

I would ask for some advice from our Dutch Hanse owners. Particularly those who are familiar with the southern parts of the standing mast route.

For the past 3 years I have arranged cruises in company from our yacht club ( This year was to the D day celebrations in France) . It is becoming popular & I expect a few more boats will want to come on our 2020 cruise. I want to make over about 10 days and several members have expressed a desire to try the southern Dutch waters.

The problem is that one of the boats is our “mothership” and is a Hanse 445. This restricts places that we can visit. We also have a 40 ft Jeneau 0ne tonner in the group.

I want to include the following places:-

Middleburgh

Veere

Goes

Whilemstad

Dordrecht

Zierikzee ( especially when their festival is on)

Perhaps go as far a Gouda then up to Amsterdam via Harlem, or the night route, although we may not have time, and have more fun only going as far as Dordrecht. If we can get into Dordrecht, we can catch the ferry to Rotterdam for a day.

The trouble is that I do not know if the Hanse 445 can actually get access to those places due to draft. Mast height could be an issue. I seem to recall that there is a bridge at one of the major locks on the way to Willemstad that is under a motorway & does not open very often.

Can any of the local Dutch sailors offer advice please, alternatively, suggest some places that we might be able to visit that would be interesting for a crowd of drunken sailors & wives looking for good restaurants and bars & pleasant places to explore. I have the Imray "Cruising Guide to the Netherlands"

But there are lots of Dutch 445 owners & some of them must have transited the route & visited some of the more interesting places

 Many thanks

Samuel

Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Brufan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brufan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2019 at 13:06
Samuel,
I try to answer from my small knowledge of the area (It's my homewaters since 1991).

Saling southern Netherlands is quite easy even with a H445 but you connot go everywhere.

Middleburg : Easy even for larger yachts

Veere : Could be tricky as it is a quite small old but charming harbour often busy in summer and on week-ends.

Goes : Depth can be limited (approx 2 m) in town basin (at the very end af canal).  But enough depth just before the main bridge (5 min walk from town).  Can be crowdy in summer

Whilemstad : Not a problem but quite busy in summer days.  You can raft up on town quay (harbourmaster permitting) or in town Marina.  there's also a modern marina 5 min walk away (Vuurtoren).

Dordrecht : Don't known it very well.  Access is a bit narrow with a cross flow current.  Not so hard to enter but just take care until you are sheltered by the walls.

Zierikzee ( especially when their festival is on) : No problem for dep draught yachts but very very crowdy during festival days as well as in summer and week-ends.  You can raft up up to 5-6 yachts

Gouda : Don't know it very well.  Easy but check for available depth in town

To Amsterdam via Harlem : Depth in Harlem town is an issue.  With 2 m keel you will get stuck in Harlem town (even with 1,8 m according to my own experience some years ago).   Crossing a commercial vessel in Harlem town can be a thrilling experience (you must trust commercial pilot helm skills ... and get out from his way as far as you can !)

But very easy on night route through Amsterdam as long as you follow time table and you synchronize with "convoy" flow. (Better practice how to keep yacht static in tight places)

There's is a book with all maps & bridge timetable for "StaandeMasten Route" easily understandable even if you don't speak dutch.  

But check websites for actual availabilty of the Route.  Bridges breakdown or schedulded maintenance happen.

You can access/exit southern Holland regardless of mast height from any lock except Roompotsluis (Oostreschelde) wich is height limited (18,6 m as far as I remember).  

Krammersluizen (north-east end of Oosterschelde) and Volkeraksluizen yachting ("sport") locks are height limited (18,6 m as far as I remember) but you can use the parallel commercials locks which are topped with opening bridges (on request only - priority is given to commercial traffic).

Railway Bridge in Dordrecht (huge) opens only a few times a day (let's say : each 2 hours average) depending of railway traffic and only for a short period (timetable available in any Ducth navigation book). Be prepare to cross it quickly in very crowdy waters during summer !

Hope this helps

(Sorry for my poor english language)

Bruno

hanse 355 - 57

S/Y Spicy Ginger

White hull, 2 cabins, Volvo D1-30, Selden rig, removable mainsheet track system (modifications done now), Simrad-Jefa autopilot.
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Captain Cook View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2019 at 13:56
Hi Samuel
I sailed the Staande Mast Route (southbound) in 2012 and heading north in 2015, so even if I am not born in Holland, I may give some advice?
I guess that trivial things like the need for every ship to posess a copy of Wateralmanak II(I?), and every Skippers proof of  a CEVNI Certificate of Competence are already taken care of?
In 2012 I sailed from Denmark to Terschelling-Harlingen-Amsterdam-Vlissingen, and in 2015 the route was reversed, only a small accident with a bridge which dropped into the river in Alpen aan den Rijn, caused me to return from Boskoop and sail home via Rotterdam.
While we are waiting for some dutch members to respond, I´ll make a few comments.
The H445 may encounter challenges finding harbours deep enough, and the mast height may be a problem when passing the Schipol Airport.(Update: No problem, the H445 only reachs 17,52 meters)(Or???). This should be examined.  My mast is under 19,6 meters, and I could pass.
All ships in your convoy with masts exceeding 18,90 (check!) meters have to use the commercial locks in Krammersluiz and Volkerak. I experienced some exiting moments when huge barges started their propellers and tossed my little ship around in the lock. Be aware, that the commercial locks are meant for big vessels, and there may be 12-15 meters between mooring points.
There is a booklet on the Staande Mast Route, do buy at least one copy, it is a must to have.
I know because I did not have it, but it was shown to me by a fellow dutch sailor.
For restaurants, at the moment I remember "de Rosmolen" in Willemsburg for a nice meal. (Willemstad of course, as Koppiekrou writes, I stand corrected).
I give you a few links to study before your trip. The internet is full of all sorts of advice.
:Kjeld




Edited by Captain Cook - 06 July 2019 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pieterman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2019 at 15:36
Hi Sam

We have done the "staande mast route" North to South in July 2014. We started the route in Amsterdam and sailed all the way to Vlissingen. 

As mentioned in the posts above, the mast height cannot be a problem. The two minor 'problems' can be the Krammersluizen and the Volkeraksluizen, both in Zeeland. Both locks for pleasure craft have a fixed bridge: the Krammersluizen have a maximum height of 18,40 meter, the Volkeraksluizen a maximum height of 19,25 meter. The locks for commercial shipping have at least one lock with a bascule bridge. In that way: the sky is the limit. Smile

I'm looking in the booklet right now, and there is not a lot of information on the depth of the waterways. The booklet only teaches me that the minimum draft is 2,50 meter. This slight draft is only on the route along Harlem. I cannot find any information on the draft in other canals, but you can assume that you have at least 2,5 meter of water everywhere.

We did not take the the Harlem route but the night route through Amsterdam, which starts or ends in the Houthaven. Because of the special atmosphere of this route, I think it is preferable to the Harlem route.

Regards,
Pieter(man)



Edited by Pieterman - 04 July 2019 at 15:37
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2019 at 16:08
Thanks everyone. I have done the route in my 311 quite a few times (the last time was to Dordrecht in 2018)I have done both night route & Harlem, but cannot recall the depths at places like Sparndam or in the locks for the night route etc.

I believe that there is a new marina in Amsterdam that is near the old Sixhaven one- is that correct?

I gave no attention to draft as I only draw 1.75 & a 445 draws much more. I do have the books but I am not convinced of their accuracy as I have run aground in the canals- In particular opposite sand loading areas where they seem to dump some in the canal (always pass on the opposite side of the canal!!)

I really wanted to know how owners of larger craft managed and if they actually got into the harbours I mentioned. Plus if there are other really nice places that I have missed from my list that I could take members to visit instead. It is useful information that tall yachts can use the commercial locks to get through the bridges where height is limited. I did not know that

I seem to recall I ran aground just after I transited the lock to Gouda between the 2 road bridges at the junction to get into the marina because i moved over too far & if the depth at the first part is deep enough for a large yacht. I know it gets shallow as one moves along the line of berths.

Is there enough depth in either of the 2 closed docks at Dordrecht for a 445 or would one use the open one at the northern end- If they did it would be very rough & uncomfortable, I expect a yacht would easily get damaged there


Edited by samuel - 04 July 2019 at 16:12
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2019 at 16:18
Originally posted by Captain Cook Captain Cook wrote:

Hi Samuel
I sailed the Staande Mast Route (southbound) in 2012 and heading north in 2015, so even if I am not born in Holland, I may give some advice?
I guess that trivial things like the need for every ship to posess a copy of Wateralmanak II(I?), and every Skippers proof of  a CEVNI Certificate of Competence are already taken care of?
In 2012 I sailed from Denmark to Terschelling-Harlingen-Amsterdam-Vlissingen, and in 2015 the route was reversed, only a small accident with a bridge which dropped into the river in Alpen aan den Rijn, caused me to return from Boskoop and sail via Rotterdam.
While we are waiting for some dutch members to respond, I´ll make a few comments.
The H445 may encounter challenges finding harbours deep enough, and the mast height may be a problem when passing the Schipol Airport. This should be examined.  My mast is under 19,6 meters, and I could pass.
All ships in your convoy with masts exceeding 18,90 (check!) meters have to use the commercial locks in Krammersluiz and Volkerak. I experienced some exiting moments when huge barges started their propellers and tossed my little ship around in the lock. Be aware, that the commercial locks are meant for big vessels, and there may be 12-15 meters between mooring points.
There is a booklet on the Staande Mast Route, do buy at least one copy, it is a must to have.
I know because I did not have it, but it was shown to me by a fellow dutch sailor.
For restaurants, at the moment I remember "de Rosmolen" in Willemsburg for a nice meal.
I give you a few links to study before your trip. The internet is full of all sorts of advice.
:Kjeld


Brilliant links
Thanks a lot
As an aside I see that you have an Aeries lift up wind vane. So do I Big smile
Has got me out of trouble on a number of occasionsSmile


Edited by samuel - 04 July 2019 at 16:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koppiekrou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2019 at 07:11
It is the restaurant “de Rosmolen” in Willemstad.
291 - 341 and now a Hanse 371 '05 - Karma - shoal draft - 2 cabin - 40hp - Variprofile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2019 at 20:13
Hi Samuel,

We have a 445, standard draft is 2.25m (7’4”) but the shoal only 1.85m (6’2”). I’ve had both on Albion, she was delivered with standard but last year I switched her keel for the shoal draft. 

I am US based but reading the other posts bridges will be your problem. The 445 air draft is 20.25m (66’7”) without antenna. We work on basis of 21m (69’) absolute minimum bridge height to account for masthead VHF antenna etc. and a small safety margin.

Matt
HANSE 445 #231 "ALBION"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2019 at 23:45

Hi Samuel

I will share a few hints with you regarding your planned voyage. I hope that some dutch sailors will correct me if I am wrong. The spelling of restaurant names is not very important to correct, just help Samuel a little with other things if you can. Wink

The “Channel Skipper Exam” ICC/CEVNI is obligatory. The exam is a multiple choice test on the internet, very easy.

Wateralmanak is obligatory (only volume I, but buy II as well). StaandeMastRoute booklet is a must.

If you read the link in my post above, you will see, that some of the big road/railway bridges open so seldom, that you may have to wait a day for the next opening.

When calculating the mast height at Krammersluiz and Volkerak, you need to know the tide. Quite a few of the rivers, lakes and channels are tidal water.

Mast height over 20 meters can be a thing to report by VHF when passing an airport. (Find out).

My chartplotter uses C-Map, where you can see the tide at any given tide station and at any given time and date. Furthermore it shows tidal streams with coloured arrows with the strength of the current. This gives you a tool to plan departures and arrivals in tidal zones. Skippers who believe that tidal streams can be calculated by looking at the tidal timetable still have something to learn. Even if you were aware of this, you may learn something new about tides if you search “ChitChat” “Tidal Waters” from 15/6/2019.

(I have a device called PC-Planner, so I can see tides/tidal streams on my PC and make routes and waypoints and then transfer them via a SD card - I can also print maps and routes from there).

In a convoy you will have a “Skippers Meeting” before every leg.  I had a 12/230V printer aboard, and could print a paper with informations for my fellow sailors. That included tidal streams, opening times of locks and bridges and VHF-channels.

With a H445 (2,25m) you have to carefully plan the harbours you want to visit. My wife had great success with phoning the harbour office in advance, asking if there was a berth available. Phone numbers are in C-map or Wateralmanak. You can also ask if the H445 can moor at the “Meldesteiger” , or just outside the harbour for a few days. Sailors who can use the word “Sir”, and behave themselves in a polite manner will get better service than the “Know-It-All” –type.

Also bring two sets of VHF that can be used from the cockpit. Choose channels from the map and signs on the bank. You also have to be willing to talk in the thing, and be aware, that even in Holland there are radio operators at the locks which do not speak very good English. I once spent a few hours waiting at the Volkerak Locks,  because the female operator did not understand my wife. The operator insisted that we did not come from the south, but west. The opening is towards SW.Angry (My wife speaks fluently English, French and German). If sailing in Rotterdam waters you will need to be in radio contact with authorities all the time, and ask for permission for every move from “Maas Control”. (Try to get in convoy with a dutch-speaking skipper).

The meeting place and time if you choose the night convoy to/from Amsterdam is important. In “Cruising Guide to the Netherlands” it said 0200, the harbourmaster in Enkhuisen said 0300, so we phoned the office in Amsterdam and got a quite different time: 2200.  We had to speed up a little to make time. (We passed one bridge at 2230 (which then closed for the night), then waited until 0200 where the convoy started).

My memory is not as it used to be, but I will share a few facts. (I am finding some notes in my old logbook).

Coming from the south (Vlissingen) we were five yachts passing the lock and first bascule bridge.  Just before Middelburg we were 30 yachts milling around the last bridge of 6. The “intelligent” bridge-lifter had timed the openings to create havoc when 28 yachts tried to find the best place at one time. A couple of yachts suffered minor damage because of this idiocy. One yacht and a small excursion boat had a collision with some damage. Middelburg old city is worth a few days stay. Crowded.  A little bridge in the harbour can only be opened in office-hours. A dutch sailor told, that in his log from the last ten years, apart from 2013 and 2014 the last week of juli had been with storms or gales.

From Middelburg we sailed through Krammersluiz and Volkerak, and got a fine place in Willemstad. The office was closed, but we had got a  place assigned by phone earlier.  Wind and tidal stream made us grateful for a helping hand from a dutch sailor-family. Nice little city with a lot of restaurants. Crowded.

Dordrecht  Royal Yacht Club is very nice, and just outside you will find 3,0 meters and a place to moor for a bigger boat? The depth in harbour is ?,(more than Freya’s 2,05m) and you have to ask for a little bridge to be opened before access. ( And ask if the H445 can stay just outside?).

Gouda has a nice harbour, and the harbour-master is proud to be of Danish blood.

Boskoop also has a fine little harbour, but the given depth of 2,4 meters is quite optimistic. The sea-grass was tugging my keel. Little bridge to open by hand.

If you buy several books/guides, you sure can negociate a discount.

So now we just need a few remarks from other sailors with knowledge of beautiful Holland.

Cook the Captain




Edited by Captain Cook - 06 July 2019 at 01:29
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2019 at 07:16
Captain Cook
Thanks for the notes. I am surprised about the ICC/CEVNI. When I did it in the UK I had to take a test in a boat at sea !!!
I first did the canals (southern part) in 1970 when they truly were "tidal".
Once when following the convoy in the canal  Walcheren we were struggling to keep up in my little boat & we were almost left behind on the only convoy of the day. In those days one would pay a Guilder to the bridge keeper as one passed the bridges. As for speaking English !!!- forget it !!!!

I have done them many times since. Back in 1970 my draft was 1.2 & now it has only grown to 1.75 (Cry) so I have rarely had to bother about such things.

However, that still leaves me with the questions unanswered, as to whether a 445 can access any of the places mentioned.
I would be worried about leaving a boat on the outside at Dordrecht for even a few minutes. It is supposed to be one of the busiest junctions in Europe & so can be very rough. I once sat by one of the entrance bridges to the basin, for an hour, waiting for the harbour master. I spent it chatting to a lovely lady who was sitting on her balcony 3 metres from me. But it was hard holding the boat in place. It would be essential to go inside. But can one actually get inside either of the 2 basins?

The same for Middleburgh. I would not like to moor outside in the canal as the wall is not designed for yachts. Can one get a 445 inside?
Can one get a 445 up to Zeirkzee? (I do know about rafting 8 boats out as I have done it!!)
I really need to know the experience of owners of 445's when transiting the route from the south northwards.


Edited by samuel - 06 July 2019 at 07:33
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