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steering system changes

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psousa View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 March 2023 at 18:18
Hi!

Anyone here did any changes to the original steering system of the Hanse 470e?

Actually mine is full dependent on one single roller chain + steel cable terminals. If this linking part breaks for some reason (for instance orcas/killing wales as they are ramming rudders since 2020, here on portuguese coast), we completely loose steering, including the autopilot which is actually a 12v Jefa sprocket drive unit therefore, also depending of this roller chain/steel cable link.

I was thinking on:
1. to have a spare link (roller chain + steel cable); currently waiting for material recommendations from Jefa to buy it according to the plan I have for 470, also from Jeffa);
2. change to a >=20 tons hydraulic ram/linear drive unit, directly connected to the quadrant or to the ruder stock (this way we can still use autopilot if we loose the wheels link);

What are your opinions about?
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Wild View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2023 at 19:20
If you have a killer whale attack on your rudder and itís broken you have nothing on a spare or double steering system Confused Sorry 
Wild and Wet
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2023 at 21:39
Also there is a circular plate that you open with a winch handle and the L bar is inserted so that you have a hand steering tiller.

But agree with the Admiral, if they've bitten your rudder off there's nothing to turn and you'll need to set up a drogue system in order to steer, or play with the sail configuration, more akin to dinghy's than heavy yachts.
Jon B
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http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk
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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 08:20
Rather than thinking about specific items, I'd suggest first considering what effect you want to achieve; what's the real issue to which you're proposing a solution?  The mission-critical effect we're considering here is maintaining directional control of a boat.  

Steering can fail either because of an issue in the linkages or because of damage/loss of the rudder.  It's a seamanlike precaution to plan for and test out alternatives for steering gear failures and the primary back-up is to use the autopilot which drives the steering quadrant directly (at least on the 400).  Next up is the emergency tiller - but I'll bet most owners have never actually tried to use this at sea; the basic one provided by Hanse in mine is virtually unusable without modification.

Then come the alternatives that Jon mentions above: trim the sails and/or stream a drogue; I'd argue that every vessel that goes offshore that wants to be taken seriously should carry a drogue with the crew practiced in its many uses.  However, the ultimate in redundancy is to be able to deploy a usable emergency rudder - either something created as a precaution beforehand or my own particular preference, Hydrovane self-steering although this may not be perfect in every instance.


Sorry that that's a long way to answer to address your question.  However, as for the point about attacks, I wonder if there's a business opportunity here for someone to create anti-fouling paint that tastes truly horrible to Orcas?!?


H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard', Gosport UK
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 21:14
Or may be we should see it from their point of view and not over fist their waters so that they have food to eat and not see net loads being dragged up into boats whilst they go hungry.

After all, sharks mistake surfers for seals, so Orca's mistake yachts as a fishing vessels, and the deployment of 'pingers', only fuels their anxiety.

The heads, have doors to the cupboards under the sink.  Screw and glue this to a broom handle and or a spinnaker pole and you have yourself a rudder.  You need to think outside of the box and everything on board should have more than one purpose, otherwise its taking up valuable space.
Jon B
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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2023 at 07:01
Quite agree about seeing it from an Orca's perspective and the possible causes of the attacks; interesting to see (or so I understand) that such attacks have been restricted to Iberian fishing grounds.

Also agree about multiple uses for kit onboard, but a key point I was making is that the issue should be properly thought-through with options devised and practised before they're needed. My missus might have a few things to say about me b@st@rdising her cupboard doors on a nice day going across the channel!  
H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard', Gosport UK
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JonB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2023 at 08:20
Needs must!

Although under the beds are access panels to the storage areas beneath. What I was trying to demonstrate is that as sailors, whose survival in such conditions, requires some quick thinking, also needs to think outside the box.
Jon B
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http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk
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psousa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote psousa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 15:55
No, orcas donít Ďbiteí rudders. They ram them. Many of them remains usable (even slightly bent or shorter) but if the link breaks on current 470e setup, it become useless. There are also some broken quadrants. Iím from lisbon and we handle this much before it became public and build up the current buzz around. Anyways there are many other possibilities of impact on a rudder which may cause the link to break or other internal setup damage but keeps it fully or partially usable. This is the damage window Iím focused on. 

So what Iím looking for is to have ideas of solutions for a broken link.
Another possibility would be independent links, 1 per rudder wheel (some hanses, as many other brands, have them and I think this is the most reliable setup) but this solution is very hard to build on the hanse 470 so Iím looking to other ideas besides the ones I wrote:
1. Spare link (as per Hanse project jefa sent me: roller chain + steel wire); also they mailed me about the material grades which should be used so this is something Iím going to do for sure: spare link;
2. Independent autopilot system using the rudder stock (currently the sprocket drive depends on the roller chain of the link, if the link fails, the autopilot is useless), and I would prefer to be connected directly to the rudder stock instead of quadrant; I would keep the sprocket drive unit as a spare (loosing autopilot on a long passage is really a PITA); also a strong impact may damage a linear drive faster than a sprocket one, I would say;
3. Other ideas?

PS: I have a emergency rudder tiller (came with the boat) but thatís very hard to handle and before I consider it, I prefer to some time thinking on backup solutions;
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johnyred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnyred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 11:52
Can you please specify what model boat/steering system you talk about.
For at least a decade HANSE is using JEFA steering systems. They have a combination of wire-chains to transfer the wheel motion to rudder. But auto pilot is connected independently and directly on the rudder quadrant.

Speaking about JEFA, even if you have the spare parts, I think it would be extremely difficult to replace wire/chain while sailing. Better if you replace them as preventive maintenance. The problems come from corrosion and not from strength.

If you are looking for back up auto pilot HANSE is using JEFA DD1 motor (from 30' to 50'). Consider a under deck installation.

If you are looking for rudder back up you could consider WINDVANE HYDROVANE etc systems to be deployed after wheel rudder failures or attacks.
Cheers.




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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 14:39
Orcas do bite: Orca attacks: Rudder losses and damage as incidents escalate - Yachting World.  However, although by far the most dramatic, an Orca attack is still one of the less-likelier causes of losing your steering.  Submerged objects, ropes/nets and structural failures will all do the trick quite effectively.  I strongly agree that the need to consider and practice back-ups before they're needed should be part of any serious cruisers preparations.  




Edited by Ratbasher - 02 April 2023 at 14:39
H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard', Gosport UK
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