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swapping AGM to LiFePO4 without changing structure

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Ida View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ida Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: swapping AGM to LiFePO4 without changing structure
    Posted: 05 March 2022 at 08:35
I would like to replace my 6-year-old AGM batteries with lithium batteries in my Hanse 385 from 2016. Either I will buy a Liontron LiFePO4 with 150Ah or a Bulltron LiFePO4 with 160Ah. The Bulltron battery has a continuous load of 200A and costs around €1500, just like the Liontron.


Liontron writes that the LiFePO4 battery can be easily exchanged for the old AGM batteries, 

„Ladegeräte und Wechselrichter können weiterverwendet werden“,
„Eins zu Eins mit Bleiakkus austauschbar“,
„AGM-/GEL ohne Änderung der Lade-/Entladestruktur austauschbar“.

"Chargers and inverters can continue to be used“, 

"One to one interchangeable with lead-acid batteries“, 

"AGM/GEL interchangeable without changing the charging/discharging structure“ .


Now I see a video from Victron where the alternator bursts into flames because it was overloaded by the battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug


Has anyone swapped the AGM battery for a LiFePO4 and can share his experience?

Thanks
Hanse 385 #426, "eLisa", May2016, 3Cabins, Selden Mast, Elvström FCL, Furling Main, Draft: 1,63m, Volvo D2-40, Bowthruster
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H8jer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H8jer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2022 at 11:37
I have been through the update process.
It was not a 1-1 replacement. That would be dangerous.
Try reading the whole thread on my upgrade.

/H8jer
Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin
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Forth2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Forth2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2022 at 19:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adelsam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2022 at 18:45
We did this upgrade from the 2x 165AH AGMs that came with the boat to 3x 100AH LiFePO4 from Relion (https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb100). For charging, we swapped out the mains charger that came with the boat for Victron BPC122547106 Blue Smart IP67 Charger 12/25 since it has specific support for charging LiON.

To protect the alternator, we removed the sterling auto charging relay and replaced it with a Victron Energy ORI121236140 Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A Non-Isolated DC-DC charger.

I would not recommend connecting LiFePO4 batteries directly to the alternator since the lower charging impedance will probably overload the alternator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Coverdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2022 at 20:16
So, we have connected 600Ah LFP batteries to our Volvo D2-55F with standard 115A Mitsubishi alternator. 2-years and 200+ hours, no problems!!!

Did a lot of investigation/tests first. Could not find a single person on any forum anywhere who knew of a blown D2-55F alternator on Lithium.

Mitsubishi alternator has internal temperature compensation reducing current generated as windings heat. When cold we get 107A; when settled/warm 60-70A. Only thing we did as precaution is to add 110C (might be 120C?) £3 thermostat to the casing which opens the battery combiner relay if alternator overheats. We also carry a spare alternator (~£100 from parts4engines). As stated we have run 200+ hours with no problems.

Victron video shown above is alarmist using a cheap Peugeot automotive alternator in sales video for a £900 dc-dc charger. Burn-up could happen with an old/cheap alternator without internal temperature protection. Do your own investigation before spending £££$$$$€€€€ on expensive alternator/dc-dc charger upgrades rather than listening to armchair forum experts elsewhere.


Edited by Ian Coverdale - 06 March 2022 at 21:00
Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445)
Liveaboards - currently Gosport UK for winter 2023/24.
www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle
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Arcadia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2022 at 20:53
I’ve researched this as well and I fully agree. The key is to make sure the alternator stays loaded with the start battery at all times to avoid damaging voltage spikes related to the LFP BMS controller. And, as stated by Ian, temperature protection (internal or external) for the alternator.
Leon / ARCADIA
2018 Hanse 588
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alidal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alidal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2022 at 22:12
Originally posted by adelsam adelsam wrote:


To protect the alternator, we removed the sterling auto charging relay and replaced it with a Victron Energy ORI121236140 Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A Non-Isolated DC-DC charger.
Did you have the connection diagram for this?
Hanse 400#655
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adelsam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adelsam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2022 at 13:55
Not on the boat and I don't have a picture, but it's Page 4 / Diagram 4.3 of the manual https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger_-_Isolated/Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger-en.pdf with the wire bridge installed (L-H pins connected). The DC + is the wire that previously fed the ACR and we ran a new negative cable from the posts on the lower circuit panel (below the nav station).

Regarding Ian Coverdale's response, I'm not sure if the alternator on the 385 is different from the on on the 445, we actually ran this way for 2 years with the batteries prior to buying the DC-DC converter, but noticed that the alternator had developed a high-pitched squeaking noise which prompted us to add the converter. Probably a good idea for us to monitor the temp and carry a spare alternator as well (though I agree, the Victron video shows an extremely unlikely scenario).

The one downside of the converter is the windlass can draw more than 30A, so more of that load would be directed at the batteries rather than the alternator directly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alidal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2022 at 17:03
Thanks for that!
Hanse 400#655
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Ida View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ida Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2022 at 21:57
Thanks so far, I'm still not quite sure what to do.
The reports from the links from H8jer and especially from Forth2 are very detailed and interesting, unfortunately I don't really understand them and feel completely overwhelmed.
A dealer in NL advised me to install the Victron 50A Buck-Boost DC/DC converter for €830.
I will do more research over the next few days and report back here later about my experiences.
Hanse 385 #426, "eLisa", May2016, 3Cabins, Selden Mast, Elvström FCL, Furling Main, Draft: 1,63m, Volvo D2-40, Bowthruster
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