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Heaving-To

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Konstantin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Konstantin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Heaving-To
    Posted: 15 July 2019 at 07:40
Samuel, while trying to reduce the jib area so the boat would sit sharper than 90 deg to the waves I found that at fully furled position the area of the furled sail still keeps the boat 60 deg to the waves. It surely depends on how much sail area you have aft - I have my bimini and sprayhood down, I barely have anything at all aft of the wheels etc. With some substantial items aft you would need more jib area. With furled jib and rudder hard over she stayed very steady 60 deg to the waves, but still moving forward. And my goal was to create a sleek. So with just some of my furling main out to port, and rudder hard over to starboard, when the boat tries to sail into the wind the main stops working (becomes parallel to the wind, as the rudder turns the boat to starboard when she tries to sail) but the sail area of the bow and furled main pushes the bow back downwind. When the main kicks in and she tries to sail into the wind again. And this all stays in equilibrium, with the boat moving 60 deg sideways downwind, at about 1,5 knots, creating nice sleek upwind by sideways rudder, keel and some hull in the water moving sideways. And this turbulent sleek kills the approaching waves. So apart from structural concerns - rudder sideways to the waves (but there aren't any now) and the elements blowing into the cockpit, I don't see much problems with stern-to heaving-to. I'll try to find a picture I took that day and will post it here.
I did not use autohelm to hold the rudder hard over - just used the brakes on the wheels (would use some ropes in heavier weather).

Edited by Konstantin - 15 July 2019 at 07:46
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2019 at 07:04
Konstantin
Forgive my confusion but if you only have the main up & the boat would want to luff into the wind, would it not. It would then stall & fall away again. During this time the sail would flog.
Surely in heavy weather that would be a simple way to ruin a laminate sail (which i have) or any sail for that matter, in a short time.
As for "stern to the waves" that suggests to me ( If i understand it correctly)that you would be running before the wind & the sail would be constantly full. If i did that the boat would be off like a scalded cat (Sorry Johan, if you are reading this, do not let you favourite pet read that, Cry)  & want to round up into the wind.
Can you please explain how you can go stern to the waves & still not fill the mainsail.

I also have a problem, that larger boats possibly do not have, that I have the Raymarine AV 100 autopilot. When this gets into " stalling" it will turn off & stop working. Sometimes it will go hard over, which it did recently in 20kts causing a sudden gybe. As a result I cannot use it if the boat is not moving forward & steering a course. I have to either lash the helm, or use my Aeries self steering. I expect larger boats have much better autopilots & can let the autopilot hold the boat in a hove too state . Not a good situation because it relies on mechanics, rather than boat balance, but better than nothing.


Edited by samuel - 15 July 2019 at 07:08
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Konstantin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Konstantin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2019 at 06:39
I was able to heave-to on our 445 quite nicely in F6, to try it out. The boat stayed steadily at 60 deg to the waves, moving downwind only - almost no movement forward - and most importantly, with very visible protective sleek right upwind created by the sideways movement of the boat. Left and right from me were waves passing the boat but not a single one reached the boat from upwind. Just like in textbook. Now here's "but" coming - all this with the boat's STERN looking upwind. After hours of experimenting I found that with bow facing the waves, under fully furled jib and about 50% of the main the boat heaves-to, very steady, but moving forward at 1 - 1,5 kts doesn't allow for protective sleek. After just throwing hands in the air I tried the other way around - with the stern facing waves - and it all worked like a charm! Protective sleek does look like magic indeed - no waves reach the boat and she just drifts peacefully. I was single-handed and to proof the point I cooked myself a nice dinner before returning to marina.
Not sure I would dare staying in F9 with stern facing the waves (but why not - there are no waves in the sleek) but in more benign conditions it surely works.

Edited by Konstantin - 15 July 2019 at 06:41
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S/V Rocinante View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S/V Rocinante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2019 at 02:24
Thanks folks!

Originally posted by Rock Rock wrote:

I have heaved to with extra sheets on the selftacker and double reef.

Use the extra (classic sheeting) sheets when sailing longer  passages at more than 60 degrees off the wind, with that set up the selftacker is more  efficiënt then with the one selftacking sheet (when it works like a brake) 

On my 2007 400e, the Genoa rail and foot blocks were standard.

The heaving to may not have been as effective as with classic boats, but worked sufficiently, steadied the boat, temporary peace and quite.
My wife liked it.

Best regards,
Peter.

Thanks Peter; that was where my thinking was taking me as well... I’ll be playing with it and trying different “settings” over the next few months and will post here how it goes; good or bad! Wink
 


Carlos & Maria
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Mark_J1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark_J1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2019 at 12:46
Astarte - re JSD chainplates question. In a perfect world I will have chainplates when the ‘to do’ list gets that far. If the JSD is needed in anger before then it will be rigged to a bridle going on a full loop of the boats strong points. I don’t suggest we open the debate of the weight transfer, side loads etc etc. It’s covered in many forums. The chainplates from Oceanbrake will be my likely purchase http://www.oceanbrake.com/stainless-steel-attachment-plates/.  Not the topic of this thread, but another reason I was interested in the JSD was for a backup steering solution.  In that mode the winches need to pull on the bridle lines anyway (even if the loads are distributed elsewhere). So they need to be part of the setup. 

Mark

Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31
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Niels View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Niels Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2019 at 15:27
I’ve tried to hove to in 35 knots by setting the main at 120 degree with a preventer backing the main and flying the jib normal the boat moved sideways at about 1 1/2 to 2 knots and very stable it just happened “by accident” in calm weather with the preventer attached when a strong wind in front of a cloud hit me and the boat turned up into the wind and settled down with the method just described settling down for about 15 minutes until it calmed down again continuing our journey one experience richer  
Niels
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2019 at 11:45
As far as I am aware none of the Hanse designs will heave to properly. They can be hove too in light winds with perhaps a slight tweak of the helm now & then. However, forum discussions have shown that effective heaving too in heavy weather, where one can go below & shut the hatch in safety is not a possibility.
I do recall a thread where Panos, who owned a 60 ft Hanse described some serious gybes when trying it.
He is an experienced sailor & if he could not do it I doubt others could.
I have tried a number of configurations on my 311 without success.
Unlike my last long keeled boats. The sails will flog badly as well.
The trouble with drouges is that they are not a short term solution. As a single hander I used to put my last boat into hove too & I could sort out a problem, or even have 15 mins rest. Then get under way again. With my Hanse this is not possible & it would not be practical to stream a drouge.
Drouge streaming is not to be recommended in busy areas.
I have been hove too in the Southern North Sea for 4.5 hours in F9 many years ago. If a ship had come & I had a drouge out I would have been in trouble it I had to move. (Actually I was asleep for 3.5 hours anyway, so I would definitely have been in troubleCry)
As I was, I could have easily just let the sheet off & been under way.
I do not like the idea of a drouge where the boat can slip backwards onto the large unsupported rudder, or where a large wave can catch it from aft. The rudder on the Hanse design must be a blue water weakness.I lost mine on a light grounding near Inverness on a shallow sloping sand bank


Edited by samuel - 12 July 2019 at 11:49
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Rock View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2019 at 20:24
I have heaved to with extra sheets on the selftacker and double reef.

Use the extra (classic sheeting) sheets when sailing longer  passages at more than 60 degrees off the wind, with that set up the selftacker is more  efficiënt then with the one selftacking sheet (when it works like a brake) 

On my 2007 400e, the Genoa rail and foot blocks were standard.

The heaving to may not have been as effective as with classic boats, but worked sufficiently, steadied the boat, temporary peace and quite.
My wife liked it.

Best regards,
Peter.
Hanse 400e "M-square2" #0241
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astarte View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astarte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2019 at 15:07
Mark_J1, interesting. Don Jordan drouge is judged to be the best tactic, but the attachment to the boat is a challenge since it will be heavy loads. Chain plates are adviced as I understand. How will you attach the bridle?
Kristoffer
Hanse 370e #412
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Mark_J1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark_J1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2019 at 22:51
Doesn’t really work on my 2005 version. The boat will sail on the sail bag and spray hood quite successfully despite a variety of attempts to slow her!  Let us know how you get on though. Personally I bought a Jordan series drogue to deploy should I need to hold station or at least control the outright pace. 

Mark

Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31
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